personal canon

[Xamusel]

I see... thanks for that lesson.

[Alice]

No idea what the conservatives have against the concept of 'protection', as far as the liberals are concerned, it's a matter of personal choice.

I think it's something about of getting in the way of "God's natural judgement" or something like that? Regardless of the reasoning though, like you said, it's a matter of choice. It still doesn't mean conservatives should deny the right of making that choice or being educated about making that choice to others just because of their own beliefs.

And from here we should probably get back on topic. ^_^" ...I should probably say something about my personal canon, but I don't actually have an answer really just yet, so let's just leave it at that. :V

[Elf]

Mind Of Steel route ends with Kotomine indeed predicting that Emiya Shirou does indeed win the war, he just didn't know which version would win.

Do you really think Archer, who is still very active at this point, would really let Rin kill Sakura?  And do you really think Archer would really hold back after Shirou goes Full Retard?

[Cursed by Creation]

Do you really think Archer, who is still very active at this point, would really let Rin kill Sakura?

Probably.

And do you really think Archer would really hold back after Shirou goes Full Retard?

Not sure...

[Alice]

I doubt Archer would let Rin kill Sakura- if anything, he'd probably do it himself, because it's his duty and also to spare Rin the pain of doing it herself. That's assuming he wouldn't seek out an alternate solution of some kind, as long as Rin was willing to do so.

I don't imagine him holding back after Shirou goes Full Retard either. He'd likely try to kill Shirou after that point. So really, if Archer was still around to play a part in things, it'd likely end up with Shirou being dead, and Sakura's fate would likely depend on whether the two of them (Archer and Rin) think there's an alternate solution or not.

(I should probably be trying to rerail the topic but... eh ^_^")

[lantzblades]

I disagree wholeheartedly regarding Archer beating MOS Shirou in that ending. The reason being that Archer has not actually discarded who he is (that being emiya Shirou who wants to save everyone) as such MOS would beat him. Sad state of affairs given the situation but it does prove Archer's humanity.

[Alice]

....I'm not sure how their ideologies have anything to do with who would win in a fight in this case. In a straight up fight Archer would win because he literally has an eternity of combat experience where MOS Shirou does not and is stronger overall because well, Servant vs normal magus. Plus in UBW, by the time the Shirou vs Archer fight happens, Archer wasn't running anywhere near his full capacity. This would be an Archer at full strength. Archer would curbstomp MOS Shirou, plain and simple.   

Plus even if you take ideologies into consideration for... some reason, it's irrelevant here. Archer has no mercy for a self that has gone down a path this similar to his, especially when it's more insidious.

Plus the only reason Shirou in UBW was able to win on an ideological level (and thus the fight itself, though there's also the fact that, again, Archer was weakened by that point) was because he was able to convince Archer that there was still something worth fighting for in that ideal. MOS Shirou represents everything that Archer hates by this point, so he'd have no reason whatsoever not to turn him into a pincushion of swords.

Really, the only way he could win is if he kills Rin and then hides and waits for Archer's two days to run out. Either that, or ally with one of the other remaining Servants and use them to win.

[Cursed by Creation]

Yeah, UBW!Shiro kinda follows the Neutral Route of SMT.  He doesn't really lean much either way, as his ideals serve as a mere guide as opposed to Fate!Shiro's innocent idealism or to the determined but broken HF! Shiro.

[Cherry Lover]

...condoms?

Seriously, what would the Catholic Church have against them, anyway?

I think they see it as interfering in God's will (by artificially preventing conception). Of course, if God really wanted a pregnancy I'm sure he is quite capable of making a condom burst....

Mind Of Steel route ends with Kotomine indeed predicting that Emiya Shirou does indeed win the war, he just didn't know which version would win.

Does Kotomine even know that Archer is Shirou at that point?

Do you really think Archer, who is still very active at this point, would really let Rin kill Sakura?  And do you really think Archer would really hold back after Shirou goes Full Retard?

Well, he definitely does in the Geas Bad End, so I can only assume he does here also. He would definitely go after Shirou, though, he has no reason not to at that point.

I disagree wholeheartedly regarding Archer beating MOS Shirou in that ending. The reason being that Archer has not actually discarded who he is (that being emiya Shirou who wants to save everyone) as such MOS would beat him. Sad state of affairs given the situation but it does prove Archer's humanity.

I don't see how that matters. Shirou is indeed more ruthless than Archer, but if anything he'd be more determined to kill Shirou than the converse. Shirou would see it as his reluctant duty, Archer would see it as a personal goal.

Plus the only reason Shirou in UBW was able to win on an ideological level (and thus the fight itself, though there's also the fact that, again, Archer was weakened by that point) was because he was able to convince Archer that there was still something worth fighting for in that ideal. MOS Shirou represents everything that Archer hates by this point, so he'd have no reason whatsoever not to turn him into a pincushion of swords.

Yeah, exactly. Archer in UBW has reason to give in to Shirou, because Shirou is still following his ideal, and has the potential to turn out a lot better than he is. MoS Shirou is already beyond salvation, and Archer would just kill him without any hint of regret.

Really, the only way he could win is if he kills Rin and then hides and waits for Archer's two days to run out. Either that, or ally with one of the other remaining Servants and use them to win.

What remaining servants? Berserker has no will of his own, Archer is supporting Rin and Rider would rather feed herself into a meat grinder feet-first than ally with the guy who betrayed Sakura.

[lantzblades]

Archer doesn't have infinite skill. The counter force needs weapons, not people. Archer's understanding of what he's done is decidedly secondary, as if he read it on a wall, not first hand. If it were the latter then FSN as a whole is a plot hole or Archer is a monster.

[Cherry Lover]

He might not have "infinite skill", but he is most certainly stronger than Shirou. Not having restraint doesn't magically make you win one-on-one fights.

[Alice]

Pretty much so. Plus again, Archer's not going to have any restraint either, so MOS Shirou doesn't stand much of a chance. Hell, even if he killed Rin, I still think MOS Shirou'd have a really hard time of things. Like I said, his only chance is to take out Rin and then hide and wait for Archer to vanish, if what Cherry says is true and there's no longer any Servants for MOS Shirou to ally with.

[Cherry Lover]

if what Cherry says is true and there's no longer any Servants for MOS Shirou to ally with.

Well, who could he ally with? Saber, Caster, Lancer and False Assassin are all dead, True Assassin, Archer and Berserker have no reason to ally with him over their current master and Rider's only intentions towards him are likely to make him suffer a horribly painful death.

[Elf]

MOS ending is Archer winning the war.  Pure and simple.

Ilya isn't going to help Shirou at that point, and if Shirou does go Full Retard like that, he's screwed.  Even if Kotomine's helping him, there's still Ilya, Berserker, Rider (for a short time), Rin, and Archer.  I doubt Gil would even factor into it. 

Or Gil just kills everyone because, well, fucking fakers.

[Cherry Lover]

Well, I think the major difficulty Archer would face in that context is Rin. As you've alluded to before in the fanfic you wrote that follows a similar ending, Rin's goals in that war don't co-incide with Archer's, at least once Shirou is dead. If Shirou somehow manages to kill Ilya, he might be able to remain attached to Rin long enough to end the war (although, then, if Shirou kills Ilya the war is over anyway), but otherwise Rin's desire to obtain the Grail at all costs will conflict with his desire to protect Ilya or, at very least, not be responsible for her death and the destruction of the world.