Author Topic: Servant Stat Conversions  (Read 7348 times)

Cherry Lover

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Re: Servant Stat Conversions
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2014, 04:11:29 PM »
Well, you're never going to find a direct comparison between two completely different systems, and trying to shoehorn one into the other is just ridiculous. I think a better method would be to convert between the two according to which universe he is in. Somehow his D&D magic would have to be converted into something like Medea's magic for use in the Nasuverse, and you probably don't want to worry about stuff like circuit capacity or the like because he simply doesn't use circuits, like Medea.

As for the conversion factor, you have to be very careful about it. Spells that are easy in one universe may be very difficult in the other, and if you happen to pick one of those spells for comparison you will get a nonsensical result, and one universe will end up looking far more powerful than the other when that isn't really the case. Honestly, I think you're better off trying to calibrate it so that the overall power-levels are about the same, so that a strong magus in the Nasuverse is overall roughly equivalent to a high-level D&D wizard, rather than trying to calibrate it by looking at specific spells that are in reality far more powerful and difficult in one universe than in the other.

I mean, if you look at it in terms of fighting ability D&D magic is pretty weak relative to Nasuverse magic, because in the Nasuverse someone untrained in magic is pretty much a sitting duck no matter how good a warrior they are, in the modern era at least. But, there was a time when that was not true (hence Saber having Magic Resistance), and D&D magic seems to allow you to do some things that Nasuverse magic quite simply cannot do.

The main problem here is that you're attempting to take a very non-standard Nasuverse spell used by an extremely powerful mage and compare it to a much weaker version used by a D&D mage. If you do that then you will obviously end up coming to the conclusion that D&D magic is much stronger when it really shouldn't be.

Junky

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Re: Servant Stat Conversions
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2014, 09:02:34 PM »
Btw, is this for Adrift in the Kaleidoscope? Mike seems to have explained the reasons you shouldn't be quantifying everything quite well (and he obviously understands D&D a lot better than I do).

And Mike, he chose Caster as a comparison because Rain of Light is compared to quite a few things (A Rank, 10-Count, triple Shirou's prana capacity, etc.) and thus easier to use as a basis. It is quite flawed but we have no clue how much prana in units the other heavy hitters use, such as Alba or Aoko.

Cherry Lover

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Re: Servant Stat Conversions
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2014, 09:26:29 PM »
And Mike, he chose Caster as a comparison because Rain of Light is compared to quite a few things (A Rank, 10-Count, triple Shirou's prana capacity, etc.) and thus easier to use as a basis. It is quite flawed but we have no clue how much prana in units the other heavy hitters use, such as Alba or Aoko.

Yeah, I understand why, the problem is that Caster's magic is not even close to being standard Nasuverse magic, and I think comparing her use of it to uses of similar spells in D&D will massively skew the power-level argument against the Nasuverse.

Andoriol

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Re: Servant Stat Conversions
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2014, 10:47:33 PM »
Yes, this is for Adrift in the Kaleidoscope, trying to get as much input on it as feasible.

And again, quantifying helps me write and be consistent. I don't expect it to be perfect or anything even close, but I want to do it for a variety of reasons.



Why would Caster skew things in D&D's favor? Caster is a freaking Servant and D&D seems like a world in the Age of the Gods. I mean, looking at what they're capable of doing and the comparative feats, Medea actually comes across as an Epic Spellcaster. And by that I mean somewhere around level 40 when the level cap is half that. What she is described as being able to do as well as what she is shown doing line up well with the capabilities of a spellcaster of absolutely ludicrous levels, provided restrictions on some spells, mostly the ones that deal with the True Magics.

I mean, if the beams are (individually) A-rank attacks (and you can accept my logic about the conversion rate for damage between Servant stats and D&D), then that means that she's essentially spamming 6th or 7th level spells. Even if you take into account her being in an area she's prepared beforehand and having a connection to the leylines and use the Spellpower system for D&D, she still does that (which is very high level in the first place) and then casts other spells at the same fucking time. Caster (without being limited by being a Servant with a comparatively crap master) would make pretty much any D&D spellcaster her bitch. Even people like Elminster (The classic uber-mage) would probably get turned into mush.

Aside from the whole 'mundanes have no defense against magic' thing, which D&D doesn't really do, but that's because it's supposed to be balanced while the Nasuverse almost explicitly isn't. It could very well be that only people during the Age of the Gods could 'develop' magic resistance without being spellcasters themselves, but that's a guess. And D&D-verses are distinctly Age-of-the-Gods-y. Alternatively, patching the D&D system so that you don't gain Saves with skill but rather just have them based on your Feats and base stats.

Additionally, psionics really do cover Thaumaturgy with surprising accuracy (Exempting Bounded Fields), provided one remembers that getting above level 10 is an impressive feat,  level 15 is probably a top Enforcer or seriously competent Lord, while level 20 is like the Queen of Clocktower. Someone like EMIYA would probably be level 30. Again, the problem is, as you said, the fact that 'normals' have basically zilch resistance to anything magical in the Nasuverse.

...

But where do you get the idea that the comparison would skew the relative power levels of the two universes/magic systems? Exempting the UBER-BADASSES like Caster, DAAs or Sorcerers, and LAWLZ-EXCEPTIONS like Shirou, I'm having trouble finding direct combat magic comparable to D&D magic. Given the relative effort they seem to expend, pound for pound, D&D magic seems moderately more powerful in direct combat, if far, far more rigid and limited. Thaumaturgy seems to do Reinforcement massively better than D&D magic however, as well as alchemy, Tracing would make D&D magic its bitch if it was something someone other than Shirou could do, Nasuverse mages also consistently make mystic codes that are either impressive or outright damn terrifying by D&D standards. I don't have a proper list of feats that spellcasters in the Nasuverse perform to compare to though.

Taking into account that D&D of any setting is effectively an Age of the Gods, yes, the average wizard will probably exceed the average Mangus given equal amounts of effort/talent.

While, overall, D&D magic appears to be better, it's not an enormous gap when you remember how unusual levels above 10 or 15 generally are supposed to be. Really, the only reason it comes across as better is that any asswipe with some time and training can learn it and use it competently without having to worry about element/origin/birth.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 10:48:30 PM by Andoriol »

Cherry Lover

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Re: Servant Stat Conversions
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2014, 11:16:24 PM »
Well, yes, that is exactly my point. Caster would be an epic-level spellcaster in D&D terms, well above what is even possible (she is literally part-god, IIRC), I don't see how you can possibly use her as a point of comparison. Her spells are simply well out of the league of either a D&D mage or a Nasuverse one.

And, honestly, I'm not particularly convinced magic in the D&D universe is stronger, although it's hard to really say. Probably the absolute highest mages in the D&D universe are above the top mages in the Nasuverse, but I don't think the average would be higher.

Junky

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Re: Servant Stat Conversions
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2014, 11:27:44 PM »
Actually Medea would be more powerful in that setting. High Speed Divine Words is basically commanding the World to create an effect. It should be more powerful if the gods still exist and the world is still saturated with mana. And I understand that you are good at balancing stuff, which I should have expected considering your concentration on mechanics.

About Shirou, he's a specialist. He can never be surpassed in his projection magecraft as long as he is using UBW, but that is the ONLY thing he can do. This is the foremost reason he is considered a failure as a magus. Rin calls him a failure because he can't do anything except minor reinforcement at the start of Fate, has no magus lineage or crest, and hasn't even activated his circuits. When she realizes he is doing magecraft of such a high level that she cannot dream of at her current level, she becomes tsun.

EDIT: And yes, Medea is of divine descent as Mike said, not to mention being a priestess of the goddess of magic, Hecate.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 11:29:42 PM by Junky »

Andoriol

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Re: Servant Stat Conversions
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2014, 03:09:35 AM »
Well, yes, that is exactly my point. Caster would be an epic-level spellcaster in D&D terms, well above what is even possible (she is literally part-god, IIRC), I don't see how you can possibly use her as a point of comparison. Her spells are simply well out of the league of either a D&D mage or a Nasuverse one.

And, honestly, I'm not particularly convinced magic in the D&D universe is stronger, although it's hard to really say. Probably the absolute highest mages in the D&D universe are above the top mages in the Nasuverse, but I don't think the average would be higher.
I used the word 'better' rather than stronger for a reason. Nasuverse mages appear more like Sorcerers or Psions in D&D with a limited number of spells known, but intrinsically known. There's also the fact that you can train yourself better rather than just hope for luck. There seems to be a difference in power, but mostly at the upper levels.

But if I can find a conversion rate (of any kind) between Caster and modern Thaumaturgy, I can ballpark a conversion between Thaumaturgy and Arcane Magic. Again, Caster appears to be around level 40, looking something like a Mystic Theurge of sorts. I can scale down from there to figure things out. Again, very ball-park / degrees of magnitude sort of estimations here. It's more so I don't drive myself crazy than anything else.

Actually Medea would be more powerful in that setting. High Speed Divine Words is basically commanding the World to create an effect. It should be more powerful if the gods still exist and the world is still saturated with mana. And I understand that you are good at balancing stuff, which I should have expected considering your concentration on mechanics.
Actually, that concept either matches the Arcane Language spot on, or something similar in Pathfinder alternate rules called Word Magic (which I think fits better), where it's primal words of whoopass to speak to the world. Both in Lore and effect, they seem similar enough that I'm willing to call it even just to avoid headaches. They either use the same language or very similar ones to speak to the world to make things happen.

The Arcane Language just seems to require several pages of it per equivalent spell (Stored in the casters head) rather than Caster's single word of whoopass (which matches Word magic alternate rules in Pathfinder).

And I'm used to working with RPG systems, so making a System whole cloth isn't that bad for me, it's actually rather comfortable. Most of it aside from the rolling system is in place and seems functional, it's the freaking mana/spellcasting that I'm having trouble with.

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About Shirou, he's a specialist. He can never be surpassed in his projection magecraft as long as he is using UBW, but that is the ONLY thing he can do. This is the foremost reason he is considered a failure as a magus. Rin calls him a failure because he can't do anything except minor reinforcement at the start of Fate, has no magus lineage or crest, and hasn't even activated his circuits. When she realizes he is doing magecraft of such a high level that she cannot dream of at her current level, she becomes tsun.
The problem is how to represent that. Which I have a few very nebulous ideas on how to deal, but before I throw anything out here I want to get a very basic set of numbers to work with.

Cherry Lover

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Re: Servant Stat Conversions
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2014, 01:00:53 AM »
I used the word 'better' rather than stronger for a reason. Nasuverse mages appear more like Sorcerers or Psions in D&D with a limited number of spells known, but intrinsically known. There's also the fact that you can train yourself better rather than just hope for luck.

Well, even in the Nasuverse you can train yourself to be better and learn new spells. Compare Sakura to Rin, for example. It's just that your circuit count, prana capacity and specialities are all innate and cannot be changed easily, and you have to work with that rather than having a free choice.

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But if I can find a conversion rate (of any kind) between Caster and modern Thaumaturgy, I can ballpark a conversion between Thaumaturgy and Arcane Magic. Again, Caster appears to be around level 40, looking something like a Mystic Theurge of sorts. I can scale down from there to figure things out. Again, very ball-park / degrees of magnitude sort of estimations here. It's more so I don't drive myself crazy than anything else.

The thing is that I don't think any such estimate is reliable, at least if it's based on only one data point. The two simply are not directly comparable, and there is no reason to believe that Caster's magic is a "typical" example that can be used as the basis of comparing the two systems more generally. It's easier to just say how strong you think they should be comparatively and work from that.