General Nasuverse Lore/Character/Serious Canon Discussion Thread

[Alice]

Basically, it looks like Excalibur, it can shoot (smaller) bemu like Excalibur, but it's not Excalibur. Hence the reference to it being a knockoff of a knockoff. Because if his normal weapons are rather high quality knockoffs, but still knockoffs, his Excalibur image is more what we conventionally think of when we think of a knockoff, similar in appearance, but not nearly as high of quality.

[RamKingSpaceSlamKatsulam]

Then what the fucking hell is it based on? Because it certainly looks like Excalibur, and Shirou does not have the ability to just make swords up out of thin air.

It is not for me to know what it is, but what it is not - that being Excalibur.

Erm, no, sorry. If I have an explanation and you do not, then you cannot realistically claim you are right, particularly when there is a hell of a lot of ambiguity, not to mention the possibility of an outright retcon which, as far as I am concerned, is not valid because it makes no damn sense.

It does not ipso facto require an explanation.  It is sufficient to know what it is not.

Not really. If the only plausible explanation is that it is based-off Excalibur, then it is more likely that either Nasu ret-conned it later (which I consider invalid) or, else, that what he means by "cannot trace Excalibur" is that what he gets when he tries is, whilst based on the original, so inferior that it cannot be called "Excalibur" any more.

You have yet to either refute any statement I have made or provide a viable alternative, which means you have not got a leg to stand on.

My refutation is that Nasu literally says you are wrong and that saying that an expiation for what Nasu wants is itself inherently not true, which means you have not got a leg to stand on, IMO.

[Cherry Lover]

Sorry, but Nasu does not have the right to retroactively change things and have everyone accept them even if they don't make sense.

Further, as I have said before, there is sufficient ambiguity there that what I said can be true and that, at the same time, it can also be true that Shirou "can't trace Excalibur". Because, what he made is not Excalibur, it's a massively-degraded copy of it. There is no reason why that statement cannot fit with what Nasu said.

It is ridiculous to use an overly-literal interpretation of what Nasu said that is in clear and direct contradiction with the contents of the actual Visual Novel, which takes priority in canon terms over the contents of some side-material book. The VN comes first, and the VN clearly shows him tracing Excalibur, or some degraded version of it with the same basic form and Excaliblast ability.

[RamKingSpaceSlamKatsulam]

Sorry, but Nasu does not have the right to retroactively change things and have everyone accept them even if they don't make sense.

He has the only right.

[Cherry Lover]

Sorry, but Nasu does not have the right to retroactively change things and have everyone accept them even if they don't make sense.

He has the only right.

Nope, sorry. The Visual Novel is the primary canon, it comes above the contents of some side-material book. If Nasu wants to retcon it then he has to go back and change the VN.

[RamKingSpaceSlamKatsulam]

Look I was just making a Hobbit quote.

[Cherry Lover]

Yeah, well, I've not seen the movie and I've not read the book since I was about 12, so....

[RamKingSpaceSlamKatsulam]

I'm pretty sure it's only from the movie. 

[Kat]

Sorry, but Nasu does not have the right to retroactively change things and have everyone accept them even if they don't make sense.

He is the creator, so your argument is invalid.

[Cherry Lover]

Sorry, but Nasu does not have the right to retroactively change things and have everyone accept them even if they don't make sense.

He is the creator, so your argument is invalid.

Nope. Being the creator means you understand the work better than anyone else, and can give clarifications and explanations of things. It does not mean that you can decree that something that did happen actually didn't happen after the fact. The entire concept of FSN canon is meaningless if the VN isn't canon.

[Alice]

Word of God does have a say in how things work. It does take some priority over fanon assertions. Even if it's easier to dismiss it if it doesn't make sense or is stupid, we do have to consider what Nasu has said on the subject, even if it's only in side materials.

[Cherry Lover]

Word of God does have a say in how things work. It does take some priority over fanon assertions. Even if it's easier to dismiss it if it doesn't make sense or is stupid, we do have to consider what Nasu has said on the subject, even if it's only in side materials.

Word of God takes priority over fanon, yes. It doesn't take priority over canon. I entirely agree that we should consider what Nasu said, but if what Nasu said is clearly not compatible with canon then canon takes priority, and what Leo is saying is clearly not compatible with canon.

[Kat]

It does not mean that you can decree that something that did happen actually didn't happen after the fact. The entire concept of FSN canon is meaningless if the VN isn't canon.

No, he can. Fate Stay Night is his intellectual property and he can do whatever he wants with it.

Word of God takes priority over fanon, yes. It doesn't take priority over canon. I entirely agree that we should consider what Nasu said, but if what Nasu said is clearly not compatible with canon then canon takes priority, and what Leo is saying is clearly not compatible with canon.

WoG belongs to the canon.

[RamKingSpaceSlamKatsulam]

Word of God does have a say in how things work. It does take some priority over fanon assertions. Even if it's easier to dismiss it if it doesn't make sense or is stupid, we do have to consider what Nasu has said on the subject, even if it's only in side materials.

Word of God takes priority over fanon, yes. It doesn't take priority over canon. I entirely agree that we should consider what Nasu said, but if what Nasu said is clearly not compatible with canon then canon takes priority, and what Leo is saying is clearly not compatible with canon.

Well, it is.

[Cherry Lover]

It does not mean that you can decree that something that did happen actually didn't happen after the fact. The entire concept of FSN canon is meaningless if the VN isn't canon.

No, he can. Fate Stay Night is his intellectual property and he can do whatever he wants with it.

Nope. He can do whatever he likes with the content, but he can't sensibly make parts of the VN non-canon to the VN. And, nor can he force the fandom to accept his concept of what is and is not canon.

Word of God takes priority over fanon, yes. It doesn't take priority over canon. I entirely agree that we should consider what Nasu said, but if what Nasu said is clearly not compatible with canon then canon takes priority, and what Leo is saying is clearly not compatible with canon.

WoG belongs to the canon.

Yes, but it is a lower level of canon than the actual VN is. Thus, if it contradicts the VN then the VN is correct.

Word of God does have a say in how things work. It does take some priority over fanon assertions. Even if it's easier to dismiss it if it doesn't make sense or is stupid, we do have to consider what Nasu has said on the subject, even if it's only in side materials.

Word of God takes priority over fanon, yes. It doesn't take priority over canon. I entirely agree that we should consider what Nasu said, but if what Nasu said is clearly not compatible with canon then canon takes priority, and what Leo is saying is clearly not compatible with canon.

Well, it is.

Sorry, but you have provided zero evidence of that statement. I have provided reasons why it isn't, now it is your turn to provide actual evidence that what you are saying is compatible with what is shown in the VN.