Author Topic: Of Swords and Sorcery (Chronological edition discussion)  (Read 33467 times)

lantzblades

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Re: Of Swords and Sorcery (Chronological edition discussion)
« Reply #105 on: May 06, 2014, 12:51:37 PM »
What if Kirei never gets wounded? Can't die of wounds he doesn't have.

Umbra of Chaos

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Re: Of Swords and Sorcery (Chronological edition discussion)
« Reply #106 on: May 06, 2014, 12:53:52 PM »
Then Kiritsugu dies and the world gets flooded with mud?

Kat

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Re: Of Swords and Sorcery (Chronological edition discussion)
« Reply #107 on: May 06, 2014, 12:54:28 PM »
Exactly, and Kirei gets killed in the process. Kirei's victory is always his death.

lantzblades

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Re: Of Swords and Sorcery (Chronological edition discussion)
« Reply #108 on: May 06, 2014, 12:55:55 PM »
And what if he doesn't die at that moment? What if he survives unscathed?

Umbra of Chaos

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Re: Of Swords and Sorcery (Chronological edition discussion)
« Reply #109 on: May 06, 2014, 01:01:52 PM »
Kirei is going to die if Angra is unleashed which he will do if he isn't killed by Kiritsugu. If he's killed it results in Grail life support which runs out by the 5th HGW.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2014, 01:43:00 PM by Umbra of Chaos »

lantzblades

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Re: Of Swords and Sorcery (Chronological edition discussion)
« Reply #110 on: May 06, 2014, 01:21:44 PM »
Terribly sorry Umbra but that isn't an answer to my question. In the end I'm unconvinced so it's just a point to drop.

Mooncake

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Re: Of Swords and Sorcery (Chronological edition discussion)
« Reply #111 on: May 06, 2014, 01:28:48 PM »
And what if he doesn't die at that moment? What if he survived unscathed?

If he survives, then this will happen: Kirei will release AM, and then will die. The end.
Spoiler for Hiden:
[img=http://wallpaperus.org/wallpapers/03/103/gilgamesh-fate-1950x800-wallpaper-1718691.jpg][/img]

lantzblades

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Re: Of Swords and Sorcery (Chronological edition discussion)
« Reply #112 on: May 06, 2014, 01:45:18 PM »
Doesn't actually disprove what I asked, I'm unconvinced so the subject is best dropped.

Umbra of Chaos

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Re: Of Swords and Sorcery (Chronological edition discussion)
« Reply #113 on: May 06, 2014, 01:51:58 PM »
And what if he doesn't die at that moment? What if he survives unscathed?
If Kotomine survives the fight unscathed that means Kiritsugu is dead. This means no Saber to blast the grail. It also means that the Angra will be born and humanity will go extinct. This includes Kotomine.

Edit: I hate spellcheck

Edit2: If you're talking about surviving Angra then lolno. Angra will definitely kill him.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2014, 02:01:36 PM by Umbra of Chaos »

Mooncake

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Re: Of Swords and Sorcery (Chronological edition discussion)
« Reply #114 on: May 06, 2014, 01:53:02 PM »
Kinoko Nasu, creator of the canon work from which you draw your ideas and write your stories about has stated, in the canon work, that Kirei will not survive the 5th grail war. There was no possible outcome for him to survive it.

Hollow Ataraxia. Within the dream world Avenger creates he can generate anything no matter how small the chance of it happening is. Kirei is not in HA because he cannot survive after the 5th HGW has ended. If there was a chance of Kirei surviving the HGW than he would be in HA, but he isn't .

"Upon surviving the 4th war, that man was promised certain death on the 5th"
-Avenger

It not only disproves your point lantz, it completely destroys it. This is the reality of what would happen. It's pretty simple.
Spoiler for Hiden:
[img=http://wallpaperus.org/wallpapers/03/103/gilgamesh-fate-1950x800-wallpaper-1718691.jpg][/img]

lantzblades

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Re: Of Swords and Sorcery (Chronological edition discussion)
« Reply #115 on: May 06, 2014, 01:59:52 PM »
Already countered that when Umbra brought it up mooncake, fact is, with an infinite number of variables the exception will occur.

so drop it and move on or otherwise leave the thread if you have nothing else to say.

Umbra of Chaos

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Re: Of Swords and Sorcery (Chronological edition discussion)
« Reply #116 on: May 06, 2014, 02:02:17 PM »
And what if he doesn't die at that moment? What if he survives unscathed?
If Kotomine survives the fight unscathed that means Kiritsugu is dead. This means no Saber to blast the grail. It also means that the Angra will be born and humanity will go extinct. This includes Kotomine.

Edit: I hate spellcheck

Edit2: If you're talking about surviving Angra then lolno. Angra will definitely kill him.

Cherry Lover

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Re: Of Swords and Sorcery (Chronological edition discussion)
« Reply #117 on: May 06, 2014, 02:04:04 PM »
Hollow Ataraxia. Within the dream world Avenger creates he can generate anything no matter how small the chance of it happening is. Kirei is not in HA because he cannot survive after the 5th HGW has ended. If there was a chance of Kirei surviving the HGW than he would be in HA, but he isn't .

"Upon surviving the 4th war, that man was promised certain death on the 5th"
-Avenger

Like Lantz said, what if there is no Grail War, or the 4th War is different?

Don't tell me you actually believe that with quantum physics everything is possible. Quantum physics is heavy on probability, and only things possible can happen. Impossible cannot happen. Unfortunately, the belief in quantum physics' omnipotence is the major superstition of 21st century which needs to be rooted out.

It is true that Many-Worlds theory only allows the possible to happen, but Quantum Theory also says that there is a (very) small but non-zero probability of you walking through a wall, so it allows for a lot of weird shit. Further, because of the Chaotic nature of the world, a hell of a lot of things can change through quantum events (things like the weather, genetic mutations and possibly mental processes are all likely affected by quantum events in some way). Now, obviously some things can't be done. No amount of randomness is going to make Shirou fundamentally evil (without making him "Shirou in name only", anyway) or cause a person to do things they normally wouldn't do (although it can, of course, change who the person is), but you can get a hell of a lot out of it.

Of course, the vast majority of worlds would be ones in which the canon characters simply did not exist in their current forms, but somewhere out there would be worlds with a very different history where those people still somehow came into existence.

Unless Saber destroyed the Grail that will not happen. If Saber does destroy the Grail but Kirei is still soaked his life support from the Grail will still fail which will kill him in time(about the time of the 5th war). If she destroys the Grail before that happens then he will die from his wounds.

Sorry, I think you're being way too rigid here. There are certainly going to be universes out there in which the Grail Wars stopped a long time ago (indeed, Prisma Ilya is one of them, IIRC).

Kinoko Nasu, creator of the canon work from which you draw your ideas and write your stories about has stated, in the canon work, that Kirei will not survive the 5th grail war. There was no possible outcome for him to survive it.

Yes, given the assumption that the 4th war went the same way (which is necessary for HA since changing the 4th war changes the characters in the 5th). But, there is no reason to assume the 4th war cannot change. After all, the 5th war has 3 very different paths (minimum), so why shouldn't the 4th war be the same? Just because we only see one path for that war, it doesn't mean others cannot exist.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2014, 02:04:46 PM by Cherry Lover »

lantzblades

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Re: Of Swords and Sorcery (Chronological edition discussion)
« Reply #118 on: May 06, 2014, 02:06:33 PM »
Surviving doesn't mean Angra just means out of range etcetera.

in the end my previous post nails this to the wall infinite variables, infinite possible differences, the exception need only occur once but it will occur.

Umbra of Chaos

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Re: Of Swords and Sorcery (Chronological edition discussion)
« Reply #119 on: May 06, 2014, 02:12:18 PM »
Beingg out of range of Angra's mud doesn't work. Kirei would need to be in a plane. Then he would starve because all of the earth is covered in grail mud.