character Q and A

[Cherry Lover]

He has items that are the same as Avalon and Excalibur, not copies or originals but items that produce the same effects as powerfully if not more so, having an unlimited number of swords is UBW's one advantage over the gate but that doesn't matter because if Gilgamesh is disarmed the weapons just return to the gate instantly so it can't beat Gilgamesh even conceptually anymore.and apparent CCC added some new crap about his endurance and crap so he's even tougher. And new super phantasms as well. So nothing works anymore. Look I know the ignorant people who never paid attention missed this but in the original version Satoshi had a hell of a time winning a fight. A rebooted Satoshi cannot win and even if Archer, Shirou or Saber could still win it's pointless. That means anytime Gilgamesh is a threat Satoshi will have to be saved by someone, last I checked heroes who are saved by their parents aren't good protagonists even slightly.

Erm, Gil has Ea. Ea is clearly better than Excalibur, so I don't see the issue there. As for him having something like Avalon, that might be true, but it's not really relevant because he never gets the time to use it.

As for Satoshi not being able to beat him, perhaps you're right there. It depends how you write it. But, Saber and Shirou certainly can defeat him, at least in the context of their routes, as can Sakura in HF.

[lantzblades]

It's ultimately pointless to include him. There's no way to resolve the issue with the story even if I agree with you two. Satoshi either flops out of every fight looking like a dumb kid or is saved by other people. Neither works as a reasonable compromise because they both sacrifice the hero as believable, capable or competent. You can't power Satoshi down and include Gilgamesh, especially in the original story capacity of stealth teacher because it doesn't pay off anymore

[KAIZA]

Erm, lantz? Instead of either of those two...why not have Satoshi outsmart Gil and/or creatively use the limited resources he'd have to beat him?

Again, use his ego and underestimating attitude to your advantage. Nasu did that.

Sure, Satoshi may fail at first (even heroes can fail at first before succeeding), but then he can learn something new from that experience and use that knowledge to win later.

[Cherry Lover]

Erm, lantz? Instead of either of those two...why not have Satoshi outsmart Gil and/or creatively use the limited resources he'd have to beat him?

Again, use his ego and underestimating attitude to your advantage. Nasu did that.

Sure, Satoshi may fail at first (even heroes can fail at first before succeeding), but then he can learn something new from that experience and use that knowledge to win later.

How do you "outsmart" Gil, though? He seemingly has the ability to just look at someone and work out what they're thinking....

Also, the problem with Gil is that it's difficult to fail at first and succeed later, unless you have something up your sleeve that he's not aware of. Once you've fought him once, he's less likely to underestimate you the next time.

[lantzblades]

Outsmarting him is flopping out of the fight. Narratively it only works once anyway. In the original he had ways to beat him that weren't repetitive tricks and, again, one of the major reasons Gilgamesh is even in the story is now impossible to carry forward. So there's literally no point to Gilgamesh being present in the reboot.

[Cherry Lover]

Outsmarting him is flopping out of the fight. Narratively it only works once anyway. In the original he had ways to beat him that weren't repetitive tricks and, again, one of the major reasons Gilgamesh is even in the story is now impossible to carry forward. So there's literally no point to Gilgamesh being present in the reboot.

Well, why does he need to defeat Gil more than once (or, at least, the same version of him)?

[KAIZA]

How do you "outsmart" Gil, though? He seemingly has the ability to just look at someone and work out what they're thinking....

Also, the problem with Gil is that it's difficult to fail at first and succeed later, unless you have something up your sleeve that he's not aware of. Once you've fought him once, he's less likely to underestimate you the next time.

Gil will almost always underestimate you. If you bring out something he doesn't expect, you'll catch him off-guard. And because of his ego, you have a lot of room to work with. Sure, Shirou may not have been trying to outsmart him with UBW, but Gil certainly underestimated the "mongrel", and thus got himself into a corner.

And, well, Gil's supposed to be "endboss" material. You usually don't need more than two confrontations with him to set the point (Too OP, can't beat; suddenly EUREKA moment; rematch using that knowledge and hero wins)

Outsmarting him is flopping out of the fight. Narratively it only works once anyway. In the original he had ways to beat him that weren't repetitive tricks and, again, one of the major reasons Gilgamesh is even in the story is now impossible to carry forward. So there's literally no point to Gilgamesh being present in the reboot.

Um, just pointing out, but even Gil has a limit, and if you constantly beat him, he *will* eventually get desperate enough to pull out a perfect counter. And, if that fails, he will probably rather Ea you rather than having to deal with you anymore. Sure, that may have had to do with his role as stealth teacher as you mentioned, but I'm sure the characters would find Gil's behavior odd, given his attitude I mentioned above.

[lantzblades]

That's a major flaw in and of itself, Gilgamesh, the one present in Satoshi's universe can't be tricked into losing. There's no learning possible here. Gilgamesh as he is, is a pointless character as of now. He represents nothing because nothing he did in the original version can pay off. Set him on the shelf and move on to another person guys.

[KAIZA]

So, in your AU, Gil is unbeatable because he can't be tricked into losing...despite the fact that canon shows he can, regardless of his power. Lantz, in this case, I think you are giving yourself the limitations on what you can do with Gil, not canon.

[lantzblades]

It's basic logic Kaiza, if I bullshited my way to Gilgamesh losing I'd be flamed into oblivion. Gilgamesh knows everything he can do. Therefore, no wildcards, nothing to surprise him with. It's not possible to win here and the foremost reason for the fight is gone.

[KAIZA]

Well, technically there is:

*dramatization*
"Oh, what CAN you do with those pathetic powers of yours? Nothing! Hahahaha!"
*uses powers creatively, and since Gil underestimated them, gets caught off-guard*
"Oh noes, it cannot be! Ahhhhhhhh!"
*end dramatization*

Sure, if you bullshitted your way to victory, of course people will complain. Write it correctly and believably, and people won't complain as much. There's a difference between smart writing and ass pulls.
But, well, your choice.

[lantzblades]

No, I meant the actual plot reason for their conflict. It's a superfluous fight.

[Arch-Magos Winter]

Well the new blood seem to have a lot of problems here or there with the character or setting, the point here would to address those creatively and reform the character and setting as a result. The help I'll need will largely depend on the issues brought up. A reboot is a restarting or reimaging of the character and setting. While I want to be open to all concepts let's not change Satoshi in a manner akin to the ultimate marvel universe or the red son superman, the character at his core has to be the same guy.

>The new blood

The only person who I think is even able to put up with him in any fashion other than you is Mike.

[lantzblades]

New blood refers to new fans, not Bdoom in particular.

[Arch-Magos Winter]

Lantz. I'll put this in the nicest way possible.

You do not have fans. You have people who only look at your stuff to mock it.