Cross Effects: Rebirth (2.0) Discussion Page (OOC).

[Brahmastra]

Forvedge #1 of 2 is up!

[The Man With All The Cute Boats]

Cowboy beepboop has entered the fray

[Cherry Lover]

Hmm, Kat, you say that Mordred couldn't strike a spirit that isn't incarnated, but I'm pretty sure that's not true. She can just go into spirit form to attack them, I think.

[Brahmastra]

Servants in Spirit form can technically attack others in the same state, Mike, but the damage they do, even if they are Berserkules-tier, is so superficial that there's literally no point to it.

Basically, if whatever Spirit you're hitting in Spirit Form has 10000 HP and regens 10 of those a second, another Spirit would be whacking it for 1-2 hp.

[Cherry Lover]

That seems unlikely to me, otherwise why wouldn't a servant just go into spirit form to avoid attacks?

[Alice]

Likely it's due to a window of vulnerability when switching states. The enemy Servant could attack them while they're focused on changing forms, and I imagine a good number of Servants would be fast enough to do so. Plus if their Master is present, that leaves them wide open for the enemy Servant to kill, so that means the Servant is as good as dead in a lot of cases anyway. I imagine most of them wait until they're at a relatively safe distance and/or their master is out of range of being killed by the enemy Servant before switching.

[Cherry Lover]

The impression I always got is that a servant could fight another servant whilst in spirit form, and I see no reason why that shouldn't be the case. Is there anything that actually says otherwise, or is Brah just pulling stuff out of his ass?

[Alice]

I would have to look it up for myself (my memory is crap at the moment ^^"), but one thing to consider is this: if they can fight each other in spirit form, why don't they do so on a regular basis? That implies there's something disadvantageous to doing so even if it is possible to fight in that form.

[YOLF]

Do you ever see Servants in the visual novel fight each other in Spirit Form even when it would be advantageous to do so? Like, say, during the day? They only ever seem to use spirit form to scout and move around to a more tactically sound position.

And I'll remind you in Zero it was pretty much the same thing. Berserkerlot going into spirit form to escape once he got all beat up, Diarmuid going into spirit form to get over the former's jet and then turning physical to stab it with his anti-prana connections spear...

[Cherry Lover]

I would have to look it up for myself (my memory is crap at the moment ^^"), but one thing to consider is this: if they can fight each other in spirit form, why don't they do so on a regular basis? That implies there's something disadvantageous to doing so even if it is possible to fight in that form.

The thing is, though, that logic applies the opposite way. If staying in spirit mode allows you to avoid a fight, then why not do so? It doesn't seem to take more than a tiny fraction of a second to change form, so you should be able to do it in the time that it takes for a servant to charge a Noble Phantasm. Further, there are plenty of situations in which a servant fights without their master present, and if your logic is right then doing so would be a massive advantage, since you could just abandon the fight at any time, or even just turn into spirit form and head for the master.

I think that the master issue is probably something to do with it. If one servant stays in spirit form to fight, then the other can just change into normal form and head straight for the master. It's also possible that a servant in normal form can damage one in spiritual form but not the converse, and that fighting in spiritual form would therefore just invite the other servant to change to normal form to defeat you.

Do you ever see Servants in the visual novel fight each other in Spirit Form even when it would be advantageous to do so? Like, say, during the day? They only ever seem to use spirit form to scout and move around to a more tactically sound position.

And I'll remind you in Zero it was pretty much the same thing. Berserkerlot going into spirit form to escape once he got all beat up, Diarmuid going into spirit form to get over the former's jet and then turning physical to stab it with his anti-prana connections spear...

Well, a jet is a physical object, so to interact with that they'd certainly need to be in normal form.

[Brahmastra]

Forvedge #2 of 2 posterino!

[Kat]

Hmm, Kat, you say that Mordred couldn't strike a spirit that isn't incarnated, but I'm pretty sure that's not true. She can just go into spirit form to attack them, I think.

Servant specifically assume material forms to be able to deal actual damage. It's just like YOLF and Chris said.

[Cherry Lover]

Hmm, Kat, you say that Mordred couldn't strike a spirit that isn't incarnated, but I'm pretty sure that's not true. She can just go into spirit form to attack them, I think.

Servant specifically assume material forms to be able to deal actual damage. It's just like YOLF and Chris said.

To physical things, yes. To each other, I'm not so sure.

Like I said, if that is true, why not turn into spiritual form in order to avoid being hit?

[Brahmastra]

Mike, Servants take physical form to hurt the other Servant's physical form, which in turn harms it's spiritual form. If two invisible, intangible ghosts bump into each other repeatedly, do you think that they'll actually take damage? A battle between Servants is literally just two Spirits trying to hurt each other enough until their spiritual cores are beyond repair, the core taking damage from trying to keep the physical shape together.

Also, if Servants could literally just jump in and out of Spirit Form willy nilly at FTL speeds, no one would ever get hit. That makes for a boring fight.

[Cherry Lover]

Mike, Servants take physical form to hurt the other Servant's physical form, which in turn harms it's spiritual form. If two invisible, intangible ghosts bump into each other repeatedly, do you think that they'll actually take damage? A battle between Servants is literally just two Spirits trying to hurt each other enough until their spiritual cores are beyond repair, the core taking damage from trying to keep the physical shape together.

I see no reason why a spirit cannot hurt another spirit....

Also, if Servants could literally just jump in and out of Spirit Form willy nilly at FTL speeds, no one would ever get hit. That makes for a boring fight.

Only if you assume your viewpoint.

And, whilst it might not be "FTL speeds", I'm pretty sure they can go into spirit form in the time it takes to scream "EKSU-KARIBAH!", so why don't they?