Cross Effects: Rebirth (2.0) Discussion Page (OOC).

[Mooncake]

A majority once thought that the universe was created in 6 days 6000 years ago. Hell, most of the world probably still does believe in something similar. So, no, majority or minority isn't important, all that matters is evidence.

And that evidence can be found on Youtube, LParchive, the Complete Materials, and so on. So, yes. We are indeed correct. Go and look at it yourself if you don't believe us.

Youtube, LP archive, Complete Materials etc. are big things. I don't have time to go looking through the entirety of them in order to prove your point. Either actually provide the evidence or accept that I am entitled to my opinion.

http://lparchive.org/Fatestay-night/

https://www.youtube.com/user/XerBlade/playlists

These will suffice for now. Yes, Mike, you are titled to your own opinion, however incorrect it may or may not be.

[Brahmastra]

Weren't you the one preaching about facts being facts even if you can't prove them? How very hypocritical of you. Then again, that's my fault for expecting something from someone who believes robbery barely constitutes as a crime.

[Kat]

Youtube, LP archive, Complete Materials etc. are big things. I don't have time to go looking through the entirety of them in order to prove your point. Either actually provide the evidence or accept that I am entitled to my opinion.

You are so lazy. They already provided references. What kind of (alleged) academic you are that you don't feel like checking sources independently?

[Kurogami]

I would like to note that I looked up the relevant information near the start of this argument, which is why I stopped participating in this.

I do not however appreciate being accused of spouting fanon in this case, all I have done is ask a question and openly state that I did not find things as stated to make sense. That is not spouting Fanon, I was just curious.

It is also making me very uncomfortable, so if you want to continue please leave me out of it.

[Cherry Lover]

A majority once thought that the universe was created in 6 days 6000 years ago. Hell, most of the world probably still does believe in something similar. So, no, majority or minority isn't important, all that matters is evidence.

And that evidence can be found on Youtube, LParchive, the Complete Materials, and so on. So, yes. We are indeed correct. Go and look at it yourself if you don't believe us.

Youtube, LP archive, Complete Materials etc. are big things. I don't have time to go looking through the entirety of them in order to prove your point. Either actually provide the evidence or accept that I am entitled to my opinion.

http://lparchive.org/Fatestay-night/

https://www.youtube.com/user/XerBlade/playlists

These will suffice for now. Yes, Mike, you are titled to your own opinion, however incorrect it may or may not be.

Yeah, sorry, but I don't have time to read through the entirety of FSN right now. Plus, I read it before and I don't recall what you're saying being there.

So, no, that doesn't suffice. If you want to convince me, point me at something that isn't going to take several days of reading to find the answer....

Weren't you the one preaching about facts being facts even if you can't prove them? How very hypocritical of you. Then again, that's my fault for expecting something from someone who believes robbery barely constitutes as a crime.

Facts are true independent of proof, but without proof there is no reason for anyone to believe them to be facts. Just stating "this is a fact" does not entitle you to be believed until proven wrong.

Youtube, LP archive, Complete Materials etc. are big things. I don't have time to go looking through the entirety of them in order to prove your point. Either actually provide the evidence or accept that I am entitled to my opinion.

You are so lazy. They already provided references. What kind of (alleged) academic you are that you don't feel like checking sources independently?

One who doesn't want to spend several days of time he could be using to do something more productive proving someone else's point for them....

And, you do realise, right, that when writing an academic paper, any claim you make has to be sourced, by referring to the paper in question? True, you don't have to point to the specific location, but papers are short and, besides, there is a safeguard there in that someone will check it (usually referees) even if every individual person does not.

In an argument, you have to provide your sources in a manner which allows the other person to check them easily and confirm if they do or do not say what you claim. Linking me to the LP is no good because it is not falsifiable. I can read through the entire LP and say it's not there, and you can just say "well, you must have missed it". If you're not willing to provide a falsifiable source that I can look at quickly and say "yes, OK, you're right" or "no, sorry, I disagree", then I am under no obligation whatsoever to go out of my way to disprove my own point without any way to disprove yours.

[Umbra of Chaos]

The entire point of making the contract with the world was to get the power he needed to pull off a miracle he could never achieve with his own abilities.

I don't see what else you need as proof.

[Cherry Lover]

The entire point of making the contract with the world was to get the power he needed to pull off a miracle he could never achieve with his own abilities.

I don't see what else you need as proof.

That's proof that he needed something from Alaya to do that particular thing. It doesn't mean he got anything more than a prana supply from Alaya. Hell, it could mean that Alaya just went "hocus pocus" and magically resolved the whole situation. The fact is that, from that statement, we don't know exactly what, if any, difference there is between Archer and peak Shirou. I accept that being a CG gives him a much higher prana supply (and, seemingly, capacity), but I'm not sure if it gave him anything much else (although higher stats is possible, and my Shirou certainly isn't up to Archer's level stat-wise).

[Umbra of Chaos]

Plus just becoming a Heroic Spirit at all means having your soul sublimated into a higher existence like an elemental, which is pretty much better than human by default

Just being a HS as a result of the contract boosts him.

[Kat]

Mike, don't argue with McJon1's wisdom. He is a miracle.

[Alice]

...Mike, you did read what Elf said, didn't you? The whole reason he made the contract in the first place was to gain more power so he could try and fulfill his desire to become a Hero of Justice, and to pull that off more effectively. Regardless of whether the power came from the miracle he was granted, from the CG contract, or both, the point is, he gained a power boost. A power boost implies that he's stronger than he was originally without it. Thereby, Archer/EMIYA is more powerful than peak Shirou.

[Cherry Lover]

...Mike, you did read what Elf said, didn't you? The whole reason he made the contract in the first place was to gain more power so he could try and fulfill his desire to become a Hero of Justice, and to pull that off more effectively.

Wasn't the reason he made the contract to save a few hundred people who were otherwise going to die? I.e., to resolve that one particular event?

Regardless of whether the power came from the miracle he was granted, from the CG contract, or both, the point is, he gained a power boost. A power boost implies that he's stronger than he was originally without it. Thereby, Archer/EMIYA is more powerful than peak Shirou.

Yes, he definitely did gain an increased prana supply, and it seems likely that Archer as a servant has better stats than peak Shirou (although, then, if his stats include constant use of reinforcement in a similar way to how Saber's stats include her using Prana Burst constantly, it's not necessarily impossible Shirou could reach that level).

[Brahmastra]

It is a scene of some natural disaster, not the result of human conflict.

"Let me make a contract. I shall give you my life after my death. I would like the compensation now."

He weaves the words of contract.
After that, he changed as though possessed by something and saved people who could not normally be saved.
…Oh, so this must be how he became a "heroic spirit".

…Seeing it this way, it's nothing much.
I bet the people he saved were not even in the hundreds.
He cannot even be called a "hero" with such a number, nor would he be promoted to a "heroic spirit".
But the number isn't important.
The qualification of a hero, one who surpasses humans, is to be able to save those that are fated to die.

It is an alteration of fate.
It does not matter if he does not have power as a hero, as long as he averted a disaster that could not be changed, however small in scope.
No.
The world would obtain a "heroic spirit" in compensation for the miracle.

[Umbra of Chaos]

Yes, he definitely did gain an increased prana supply, and it seems likely that Archer as a servant has better stats than peak Shirou (although, then, if his stats include constant use of reinforcement in a similar way to how Saber's stats include her using Prana Burst constantly, it's not necessarily impossible Shirou could reach that level).

It is impossible. EMIYA is the strongest Shirou ever.

[Cherry Lover]

Yes, he definitely did gain an increased prana supply, and it seems likely that Archer as a servant has better stats than peak Shirou (although, then, if his stats include constant use of reinforcement in a similar way to how Saber's stats include her using Prana Burst constantly, it's not necessarily impossible Shirou could reach that level).

It is impossible. EMIYA is the strongest Shirou ever.

Strongest Shirou doesn't mean "no other Shirou can reach that level", it means "Shirou cannot ever exceed that level".  And, I never said it was likely....

Anyway, what Brah posted makes it clear he did gain power to save those people, although whether that power was only limited to extra prana is not clear.

[Knick]

Strongest Shirou doesn't mean "no other Shirou can reach that level", it means "Shirou cannot ever exceed that level".  And, I never said it was likely....

No, it means no other Shirou can reach him. Because if there was another that could he would not be the strongest, he would be one of the strongest.

Very simple.