Author Topic: Cross Effects - Sign Up, Discussion Page  (Read 383220 times)

Knick

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Re: Cross Effects - Sign Up, Discussion Page
« Reply #7305 on: May 21, 2014, 08:39:45 PM »
Oh right, Sakura does not have purple her for Zouken. Or at least compleatly, using the Matou magecraft is starting to turn it that color.

Going to be odd for Zouken to see a purple haired, kind, shy, non-magus Sakura.

Going to probably talk to her for like a couple a seconds though a familiar before realizing it has something to do with parallel worlds and starts trying to piece together what made her so different.

Then he loses all interest and never purposefully talks to her again because boring worthless non-heir Sakura is not at all noteworthy except as a prana battery.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 08:42:04 PM by Knick »

Brahmastra

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Re: Cross Effects - Sign Up, Discussion Page
« Reply #7306 on: May 21, 2014, 08:39:59 PM »
Sure, but magi are assholes, so that is hardly much of a defence. All of the remotely decent magi are ones who don't really follow the path of a magus.

Uh, no, all the shit or not-particularly-great magi are the ones that don't follow the path of the Magus, while all the good ones are the ones that do.

Bad: Rin (even if she can someday, in decades, reach the top 100 in terms of power in the MA, that is less due to her own skill and more to her future tutelage under Zelretch), Sakura, Caules, Shirou

Good: Darnic, Kayneth, Lorelei, The Director, Zouken, etc.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 08:40:40 PM by Brahmastra »

Kurogami

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Re: Cross Effects - Sign Up, Discussion Page
« Reply #7307 on: May 21, 2014, 08:43:50 PM »
^ This, being a good magus and being a good human being are nearly opposite.

Knick

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Re: Cross Effects - Sign Up, Discussion Page
« Reply #7308 on: May 21, 2014, 08:44:14 PM »
Nah Brah, Rin is the one exception.

She a really good magus cause she still focuses on development and mastery of magecraft. Also has massive potential.

She more of a hybrid, she follows the path of a magus but does not have the complete mindset for it. So she kinda a gray area.

Everything else is spot on though. 

Brahmastra

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Re: Cross Effects - Sign Up, Discussion Page
« Reply #7309 on: May 21, 2014, 08:45:25 PM »
Caules Forvedge Yggdmillennia never wanted to join the Holy Grail War in the first place. As a matter of fact, he had not even wanted to be a magus.

He does like thaumaturgy itself - it isn't everyday one can have the pleasure of holding absurd, scientifically impossible phenomena in one's own hands. But he never wanted to devote his entire life to it.

Besides, magi are humans who become something less - they become truly inhuman. Frankly, he did not want to be exposed to the world as some monster who would massacre thousands for the sake of research, like magi used to in medieval times.

A magus is a seeker, removed from sentimentality, compassion and other such kind words. The path was not one that Caules had wanted to walk.


This is what Apoc has to say on the topic, and I feel it is perfectly fitting.

Umbra of Chaos

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Re: Cross Effects - Sign Up, Discussion Page
« Reply #7310 on: May 21, 2014, 08:51:00 PM »
Nah Brah, Rin is the one exception.

She a really good magus cause she still focuses on development and mastery of magecraft. Also has massive potential.

She more of a hybrid, she follows the path of a magus but does not have the complete mindset for it. So she kinda a gray area.

Everything else is spot on though.

Having Zeltretch as a teacher also helps. She doesn't need to do dubious experiments and stuff because Zeltretch will just teach her anything she could learn personally.

Cherry Lover

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Re: Cross Effects - Sign Up, Discussion Page
« Reply #7311 on: May 21, 2014, 08:51:29 PM »
Rin is the only decent magus we see that actually follow the path of the magus.

Cause using of magecraft =/= magus. To be a magus you need to follow the path. It is a cultural thing.

Except that Rin isn't even close. HF is the most obvious example, but even in Fate and UBW she is way too nice. The idea of backstabbing Shirou never even enters her mind, and the one time she tries to "kill" him she ends up saving his life about a minute later (and even then, if she succeeds she just takes his command spells).

I personally like Kiritsugu's philosophy the best. Kill the few to save the many. Sure you're miserable if you follow it the full way then you'll be miserable but it has a net total good done.

I don't.

Quote
On a side note Mike:
Well would you even like Sakura if the things in canon didn't happen to her? Her past basically crafted her characterization and even appearance so without the traumatc backstory which is what makes Sakura basically Sakura would you still like her as a character?

It depends. In general, yes, I probably would, because I think Sakura is a genuinely good person (as is Rin) and that would not generally change. But, I wouldn't like versions written by people who have a different opinion of her, or versions who have been massively altered. Having said that, I do sympathise with this version of Sakura, Zouken is at fault for how she is.

Oh right, Sakura does not have purple her for Zouken. Or at least compleatly, using the Matou magecraft is starting to turn it that color.

Ah, OK.

Well, Sakura's daughter has black hair, since that is Sakura's natural colour.

Quote
Going to be odd for Zouken to see a purple haired, kind, shy, non-magus Sakura.

Well, that's only half right. She's kind and purple-haired, yes, but she's not really that shy any more (this is 30 years later) and, whilst she's not a magus in the practical sense she is reasonably competent at magic (plus she has infinite prana, which helps). Not to the level of his Sakura, no, but she's not incompetent.

Quote
Going to probably talk to her for like a couple a seconds though a familiar before realizing it has something to do with parallel worlds and starts trying to piece together what made her so different.

Then he loses all interest and never purposefully talks to her again because boring worthless non-heir Sakura is not at all noteworthy except as a prana battery.

Well, she is noteworthy, but in different ways, and I do doubt he'd have that much interest in her. She would, however, be more interested in him, although in a very negative way. He'd need to do a lot to convince her that the best option wasn't "exterminate on sight", and I doubt he could succeed given what he is like as a person.

Sure, but magi are assholes, so that is hardly much of a defence. All of the remotely decent magi are ones who don't really follow the path of a magus.

Uh, no, all the shit or not-particularly-great magi are the ones that don't follow the path of the Magus, while all the good ones are the ones that do.

Bad: Rin (even if she can someday, in decades, reach the top 100 in terms of power in the MA, that is less due to her own skill and more to her future tutelage under Zelretch), Sakura, Caules, Shirou

Good: Darnic, Kayneth, Lorelei, The Director, Zouken, etc.

I meant "decent" in terms of morality, not ability as a magus.

Also, Zouken is not a great magus. If he were he would not be a rotting pile of worms....

Ditto Kayneth, for that matter. He fails pretty damn hard at the whole "being a successful magus" thing when it comes to the Grail War. He pisses off his student to the point of losing his catalyst, and then fails miserably to deal with Kiritisugu effectively.

And, Rin is genuinely a good magus in terms of ability, she just lacks the mindset. Also, Zelretch never teaches her as far as I can tell. In HF he comes and finds a bunch of other people to teach and leaves her largely alone.

Nah Brah, Rin is the one exception.

She a really good magus cause she still focuses on development and mastery of magecraft. Also has massive potential.

She more of a hybrid, she follows the path of a magus but does not have the complete mindset for it. So she kinda a gray area.

Everything else is spot on though.

Having Zeltretch as a teacher also helps. She doesn't need to do dubious experiments and stuff because Zeltretch will just teach her anything she could learn personally.

I don't recall it being said that Zelretch teaches her, though. He oversees her somewhat, but he doesn't say anything to her. Plus, Rin experiments quite a bit from what I can tell, she is just more ethical about it than many magi would be (and, I don't get the impression that the average magus uses things like human experimentation too often anyway, secrecy would disappear pretty quick if they all did it).
« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 08:55:19 PM by Cherry Lover »

Brahmastra

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Re: Cross Effects - Sign Up, Discussion Page
« Reply #7312 on: May 21, 2014, 08:57:20 PM »
Also, Zouken is not a great magus. If he were he would not be a rotting pile of worms....

Ditto Kayneth, for that matter. He fails pretty damn hard at the whole "being a successful magus" thing when it comes to the Grail War. He pisses off his student to the point of losing his catalyst, and then fails miserably to deal with Kiritisugu effectively.

Holy shit, could you miss the marker more?

Zouken is an Archmagus, a title given only to god-tier Magi. He fucking made 1/3rd of a system that can reach the Root.

Kayneth is an amazing magus who's overcome every single trial in his life before the War with nothing but sheer talent and excellency. There's a fucking reason he's a First-Class Instructor and Lord in his early thirties at latest. The issue is that Kayneth is not a combat-based Magus however, just like Alba. He got dumped on in the war because

1. His Servant was a fucking failure, despite being strong. He keeps preaching loyalty and about how he wants to serve a lord faithfully, but defies or questions almost every single command he is given.

2. His first opponent is a main character with the specific power to fuck top-tier Magi in the ass.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 08:58:24 PM by Brahmastra »

Cherry Lover

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Re: Cross Effects - Sign Up, Discussion Page
« Reply #7313 on: May 21, 2014, 08:58:49 PM »
Yeah, I guess it's not so much that Kayneth is a shit magus as it is that, actually, being a good magus isn't well-correlated with being good at Grail Wars....

Tokiomi has the same issue. Arrogant human plus arrogant or principled super-human (and most servants are one of those, because if they weren't they wouldn't be a hero) aren't a good mix....
« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 09:00:23 PM by Cherry Lover »

Umbra of Chaos

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Re: Cross Effects - Sign Up, Discussion Page
« Reply #7314 on: May 21, 2014, 08:59:14 PM »
Kayneth also managed to hack the Grail System a bit, and he isn't even one of the founding families.

Edit: Any of the top tier magi that actually had a focus on combat would have annihilated everyone.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 09:00:27 PM by Umbra of Chaos »

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Re: Cross Effects - Sign Up, Discussion Page
« Reply #7315 on: May 21, 2014, 08:59:25 PM »
Yeah you made a few OC sakura and Shirou kids right mike?

One of them had shadow swords right?

Well due to the hair colour think it seems like you don't believe in lamarkian genetic inheritance but both shirou's sword powers and sakura's shadow powers were kind of gained via modification and not their original genetic stance. Also aren't the powers a kid gets pretty random in Nasuverse lore beyond crest inhertance. So my only advice to you is try not to draw too much from the parent's power set unless you use some crest stuff. If it is a newly founded crest those things are kind of terribly so if you do have inhertance via crest the abilities they should be pretty nerfed as it takes multiple generations for a magic crest to get any good.

Umbra of Chaos

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Re: Cross Effects - Sign Up, Discussion Page
« Reply #7316 on: May 21, 2014, 09:01:17 PM »
Actually, I think the kid does have a crest.

Knick

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Re: Cross Effects - Sign Up, Discussion Page
« Reply #7317 on: May 21, 2014, 09:01:40 PM »
Well, that's only half right. She's kind and purple-haired, yes, but she's not really that shy any more (this is 30 years later) and, whilst she's not a magus in the practical sense she is reasonably competent at magic (plus she has infinite prana, which helps). Not to the level of his Sakura, no, but she's not incompetent.

Well, she is noteworthy, but in different ways, and I do doubt he'd have that much interest in her. She would, however, be more interested in him, although in a very negative way. He'd need to do a lot to convince her that the best option wasn't "exterminate on sight", and I doubt he could succeed given what he is like as a person.

Not really noteworthy to anyone but you or specific characters if you think about.

She will never reach a fraction of her true potential cause he ability was shot to hell by forced magical trait conversion.

Also you act like she is going to recognize him he looks and acts completely differently. Hell he will probobly treat Sakura respectfully when he meats with her

The most I can see without it being metagaming would be to be like "this guy feels familier" but unable to put her finger on it. Enough to make her uneasy but not enough to be like "OMFG ITS ZOUKEN, KILL IT WITH BUG SPRAY". Also as a magus your Sakura does not hold a Candle to Zouken's Sakura or Zouken himself. They are both either compleatly living up to their potential as a magus (Sakura) or has multple hundred of years of skill with magic, combat, and dealing with people.

Also the whole being a successful magus for the grail war thing? It cause Kayneth though it was going to be a war between magi, not a war between killers. Also Zouken was a great magus, he just chose a poor method to preserve himself really.

Brahmastra

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Re: Cross Effects - Sign Up, Discussion Page
« Reply #7318 on: May 21, 2014, 09:01:41 PM »
Yeah you made a few OC sakura and Shirou kids right mike?

One of them had shadow swords right?

Well due to the hair colour think it seems like you don't believe in lamarkian genetic inheritance but both shirou's sword powers and sakura's shadow powers were kind of gained via modification and not their original genetic stance. Also aren't the powers a kid gets pretty random in Nasuverse lore beyond crest inhertance. So my only advice to you is try not to draw too much from the parent's power set unless you use some crest stuff. If it is a newly founded crest those things are kind of terribly so if you do have inhertance via crest the abilities they should be pretty nerfed as it takes multiple generations for a magic crest to get any good.

Also in regards to "her natural color", Sakura's body was changed on a genetic level by Zouken. For that reason, in procreational biology, her "natural" hair color would (now) be  considered purple.

Yeah, I guess it's not so much that Kayneth is a shit magus as it is that, actually, being a good magus isn't well-correlated with being good at Grail Wars....


That's not really true either. Some truly strong Magi like Lorelei and Bazett (the former being FAR better than the latter) would wreck face in the HGW.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 09:03:11 PM by Brahmastra »

Brahmastra

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Re: Cross Effects - Sign Up, Discussion Page
« Reply #7319 on: May 21, 2014, 09:02:51 PM »
Yeah, I guess it's not so much that Kayneth is a shit magus as it is that, actually, being a good magus isn't well-correlated with being good at Grail Wars....


That's not really true either. Some truly strong Magi like Lorelei and Bazett (the former being FAR better than the latter) would wreck face in the HGW.