character discussion

[Cherry Lover]

Well, the long answer allows for more discussion, so I'd say that....

[lantzblades]

Using the fate route as a base for shirou I'd say ubw is a logical conclusion of his character arc while hf is a dystopian view of the same arc. Now largely due to nasu basically forced a conclusion on a fairly complex subject unfairly, not to mention dumping rin's character growth  onto hf which is crap imo

[Cherry Lover]

Using the fate route as a base for shirou I'd say ubw is a logical conclusion of his character arc while hf is a dystopian view of the same arc. Now largely due to nasu basically forced a conclusion on a fairly complex subject unfairly

I don't think that's really true, particularly since HF isn't really "dystopian". It's just more that HF shows what happens when he does hit a fundamental problem with his ideal, and he's not ready for it. I suspect UBW Shirou would take a similar approach, actually, but HF Shirou was dumped into a difficult situation very quickly.

not to mention dumping rin's character growth  onto hf which is crap imo

I think that was necessary given the nature of HF as a story. Her character development needed to address Sakura, and Sakura couldn't be dealt with in UBW and still  have HF work as a route.

[lantzblades]

Hf shirou was dumped into the damn Kobayashi, hf didn't need to exist then. Ubw was rin's route and so if her development means hf doesn't work then so be it

[Cherry Lover]

Hf shirou was dumped into the damn Kobayashi, hf didn't need to exist then. Ubw was rin's route and so if her development means hf doesn't work then so be it

The thing is, it's not fair to drop Sakura's character development in favour of Rin's.

Sure, UBW was Rin's route, but that doesn't mean it has to be entirely centred around Rin, or that all of Rin's development has to come in that route. Why should Sakura's character development be shunted into Rin's route and, consequentially, limited to things that are directly Rin-centric?

There is simply no way to have all of Rin's character development in Rin's route and all of Sakura's character development in Sakura's. They're just too connected. Nasu decided that it would make for a better story if you had Sakura's development in her own route and the Sakura-centric parts of Rin's development there also, because HF would just not work if Sakura's relationship with Rin came up beforehand, whereas the converse is not true.

The only way I can see for UBW to contain all of Rin's character development would be for Sakura to not have a route, and given her nature as a character that would massively limit her development, not to mention being unfair. You simply cannot expect the routes to be as specific as you want, because there is simply too much inter-connection.

[lantzblades]

Rin orbited her route at best

[Cherry Lover]

I don't deny that, but I don't think Sakura was the cause of that, and nor could they have really put all the Sakura/Rin stuff into UBW without completely screwing up the story.

[lantzblades]

The point is I find the dump to be cheap

[Cherry Lover]

The point is I find the dump to be cheap

Like I said, HF wouldn't work without that, and Sakura is a character who is designed to have a route of her own. I understand your reasoning about Rin's character development, but I'm not sure how it would be fixed.

[lantzblades]

It already barely works

[Cherry Lover]

Well, possibly, but as a basic principle a Sakura route requires there to be some stuff left unresolved in Rin's route or, else, for Sakura to get a lot of her character development outside her route. Otherwise it would just be repetitive.

[lantzblades]

I don't buy that, sounds like an excuse

[Cherry Lover]

I don't buy that, sounds like an excuse

How is it?

[lantzblades]

It seems more that nasu dumped rins character development into hf to pad out the route and to give fake emotional gravity to the whole thing.

[Cherry Lover]

No, it just doesn't make sense for Rin not to get character development in HF, because of her relationship with Sakura. And, that development could not be done elsewhere for the same reason.