Dark Side of the Moon
Type Moon => Fanfiction => Lantz's fics => Topic started by: lantzblades on May 10, 2014, 03:49:42 PM
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The Nasuverse in perspective.
Thought I'd give my perspectives on the characters and so forth. Before I get to it however. These are only my opinions.
Tsukihime.
It's an action mystery drama. On the whole I actually like it more than FSN.
It has three advantages over FSN.
Firstly it seriously concentrates on the heroines, Fsn was more concerned about telling a flowing narrative and as a result lost the freedom of choice which made Tsukihime great, I didn't have to play Ciel's route after Arcuied's, I chose to. More to the point I got to know all the girls much better in Tsukihime.
Secondly the division between Near and far side helped define the characters and give the characters a greater sense of purpose.
Thirdly the number of heroines and important characters is larger, it helps fill out the world.
FSN
Certainly more dynamic than it's predecessor, longer as well but that's it for advantages over Tsukihime.
Is it bad? No, not at all. I just find it to be less than Tsukihime overall.
Whether you agree or not with this opinion the point I have to make should be clear.
Fiction as a whole is subjective, like what you like, hate what you hate but always remember that fiction regardless of what and (especially ) in the case of fan fiction is an adaptive exercise. All the EU star wars and start trek books are technically paid fan fiction, same goes for the TMNT cartoon in the 80's and 90's, that certainly was not the original version of those characters and setting, yet still they are universally recognized by the fans as the TMNT.
My point is everyone has a view point, the process of applying said viewpoint will change the subject of the work. Instead of getting up in arms over fan fiction ( which let's face it is a luxury) or continuity I think we ought to see a story for what it is, instead of what it is not.
Raging over canon or slapping umbrella terms on to stories is pointless. It improves nothing. While I know I'm a minority in thinking these thought I thought it best to express them as they best explain why and how I write.
The thread is for discussion obviously. I only have one rule here.
1) be polite, rudeness, personal attacks and otherwise improper behavior will not be tolerated.
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Firstly it seriously concentrates on the heroines, Fsn was more concerned about telling a flowing narrative and as a result lost the freedom of choice which made Tsukihime great, I didn't have to play Ciel's route after Arcuied's, I chose to. More to the point I got to know all the girls much better in Tsukihime.
Secondly the division between Near and far side helped define the characters and give the characters a greater sense of purpose.
Thirdly the number of heroines and important characters is larger, it helps fill out the world.
It does not really concentrate on heroines. Hisui in Hisui route is barely important, so such view is pretty narrow.
Fiction as a whole is subjective, like what you like, hate what you hate but always remember that fiction regardless of what and (especially ) in the case of fan fiction is an adaptive exercise. All the EU star wars and start trek books are technically paid fan fiction, same goes for the TMNT cartoon in the 80's and 90's, that certainly was not the original version of those characters and setting, yet still they are universally recognized by the fans as the TMNT.
Readers may have his own interpretation, but the statements of the creator takes priority. If fan fiction disregards canon facts, it's go against the letter and the spirit of the title.
Could you give us sources whether they are recognized as canon by all?
Raging over canon or slapping umbrella terms on to stories is pointless. It improves nothing. While I know I'm a minority in thinking these thought I thought it best to express them as they best explain why and how I write.
Purity of canon, even if somewhat excessive, is preferable to trampling on the author's work by introducing fanon ideas which are incoherent with his vision.
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Had Nasu said this is the one and only interpretation I would agree. However Nasu said two things
1) every end is canon
2) certain people can travel between these limitless worlds.
As such he has confirmed the multiverse and opened Pandora's box. Meaning that canon is worthless (at least in the context of a boundary)
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It is not worthless because certain things cannot happen. Kotomine always dies in the Fifth War. The Grail gets dismantled after 10 years as per Fate timeline provided by Nasu (which puts canonicity of HF into doubt)
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Another thing that cannot be changed is the fact that modern people cannot become Heroic Spirits.
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Sorry Kat, don't buy it, HF is, as Nasu said, canon.
only in universe one A Umbra.
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Do you have anything that says otherwise Lantz? Can you think of any conditions that would make it possible for modern people to become HS other than becoming a CG? A problem you seem to have is stating something can happen without saying how.
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The sheer fact that a multiverse exists Umbra, the basic nature of the theory say eventually event X will occur to make Z happen. Is it improbable? Hell yes but entirely possible. You'd have to save the planet from death and wipe out all the types single handedly or some such but I've no doubt you'd be labeled a hero for that.
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Impossible. The example you have stated cannot be fulfilled. Types are not the supreme beings of their worlds for nothing, and no modern human could ever hope to defeat one unless they're a magus who can use True Magic to draw prana from other worlds. Even then the next one would stomp on you.
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The attitude you persist upon is one founded squarely in the desire to ignore the abstract concept of success within a boundary that says X is impossible. That's fine if you wish to have that view Umbra, I however do not share such a view.
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Lantz the success you are trying to say could happen is not possible. Modern people cannot become HS because they need to fulfill three conditions.
1- Legendary feat
2- Recognition
3- Being, in some way, unique
The only one capable of replicating that feat, in other words.
-Bridgeburner90
Modern people simply cannot fulfill do this.
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A legendary feat needs an absolute definition before you say it's impossible.
Recognition in the information age would be fairly easy
three is impossible to prove or deny without data.
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Taking Gil for example.
1. He established a worldwide rule. Certainly legendary.
2. Everyone knew who Gil was, and watched him spit in the face of gods.
3. No one has ever achieved what he did.
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I don't understand what the commentary on SW, ST, and TMNT anfiction has to do with anything - other than that this was posted in the fanfic section of the forum.
And "multiverse" doesn't prove you are correct about modern Heroic Spirits - the Throne of Heroes is outside the bounds of time and space, and the rules/guidelines for getting there are quite specific.
In addition, don't bring in EXTRA because that is the Moon Cell.
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TMNT, Star wars and star trek are all series with things considered "canon" by the fans that are not the original version of the characters or aren't canon by the creator.
the changes in circumstances are important Lyco. Talking over each other gets us nowhere. I can follow the logic you're using, my point however is that given the option of a limitless horizon and a white washed room I pick the former.
Canon is, from a creative standpoint stifling, might as well write a computer program or hire monkeys for all the enjoyment I would get from fact checking and gutting my interpretation of the characters to be as canon correct as possible.
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those all have multiple writers per franchise though
It's the same with WH40k, CS goto is completely full of shit so people ignore what he writes, or say, different writers have different ideas of the size of space marines or some primarchs so there's nothing clear about their size and people have to go with their headcanon or have shapeshifting marines and primarchs, which makes no sense (Unless Chaos).
But Nasu is one man, one writer, one God.
And when word of this God says "something is this specific way" and you say "but no, my way is better" then you become mini-CS goto.
if you get what I mean
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Ok, fine names, I'm done. Your comments prove my point, I will never get through to any of you, it's better then not to try. Have fun but never discuss your opinions with me.
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It isn't his opinion it's a fucking fact dude.
Nasu canon is what nasu says it is.
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The thing is, Lantz, you look at the nasuverse the same way you look at your comic books or at star strek: As a collection of stories with characters told in a world that works this way, but with a world (and by extension wordly mechanics) that are interchangeable: Spiderman doesn't always have web-string cartridges throughout the worlds and can just shoots strings by himself in some, so a nasuverse world where a modern man can enter the throne MUST be possible, because only one guy said it wasn't possible.
Except, as I said, multiple writers, reboots. The reason there is canon accepted by fans and canon not accepted by fans is because of those two factors: multiple writers and multiple reboots.
The nasuverse has no reboots, and has one writer. There're character materials that provide one SORTA retcon, and it is completely inconsequential: Shirou lost his mind and the picture of excalibur was blurry anyway. So the canon that is is the only canon and the canon that will be. There is one writer and his word is law.
Learn to look at different works differently: Nasu's stuff doesn't operate the same way as comic books, or star trek, or star wars. There's no extended universe with a gorillion writers, no shitty reboots, no CS Gotos, there is what there is.
If what there is is somehow dissatisfactory to you, then... well, take the bits you like from the nasuverse. Take the bits you like from other things. Write an original world, with inspiration taken from many things. A world where three wizards CAN throw a dragon's soul into a kid without people asking "Doesn't the body reflect the soul? Wasn't HF all about dat shit? Why ain't he scaly?"
And if you're not going to... tough. Nobody, at all, sees the nasuverse the same way you do, but if you want to keep going with your "personal canon," then go ahead. Just don't be surprised when new people drop in and go wtf.
Because... wtf.
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You clearly aren't listening Names. Please desist your attempts to push me out of the fandom.
Arch I suggest you leave.
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He's not trying to push you out of the fandom. He's making a point, one you continuously miss.
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can we not do the mike thing where interpersonal disagreements are understood in some kind of weird exile context
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We could Leo, if y'know that wasn't exactly what was happening. Canon canon canon blah. And when I provide absolute evidence that I'm fully in the right because Nasu directly explained the second magic and it's function and then also said every ending is canon, I'm told to go write plagiaristic works outside the fandom.
I tried to get everyone on the same level, to be reasonable and stop talking over each other but that obviously not an option. As such I feel completely justified in refusing to listen to the "criticism" I'm given.
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We could Leo, if y'know that wasn't exactly what was happening. Canon canon canon blah. And when I provide absolute evidence that I'm fully in the right because Nasu directly explained the second magic and it's function and then also said every ending is canon, I'm told to go write plagiaristic works outside the fandom.
I tried to get everyone on the same level, to be reasonable and stop talking over each other but that obviously not an option. As such I feel completely justified in refusing to listen to the "criticism" I'm given.
>Plagiaristic
There's a difference between plagiarism and being inspired by something.
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inspiration is plagiarism, okay
And hey if you feel like everyone's trying to exile you, that's on you. I don't think that many(maybe one guy) people have actually told you to fuck off from the entire fandom.
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Can't see how you're doing anything but when you ignore my points and tell me to go write something apart from fandom related work Names. I've used word of god to justify my point of view when asked. The only complaints I get are ones that fail to refute my claims yet still demand I stop writing.
I'm not going to entertain fanboy crap, none of you are Nasu, don't tell me how to write unless you make it legal to get paid for fan fiction and then pay me.
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Lantz canon is far from stifling. There are many well written fanfics that follow the boundaries that canon creates.
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To you Umbra, not to me. I find the repetition of the concepts well established in canon to be faulty. I find the loss of cast members to be disappointing I find that the insufferable conditions in the larger world to make writing pointless.
I am not a parrot and if the heroes cannot succeed (not if they fail but if they are never given a real chance to succeed) then any story told becomes pointless, might as well give it a paragraph summery and move on to valid work that is more than a nihilistic mess.
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Nihilism is a valid aesthetic and failing doesn't even make something nihilism in the first place.
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It's a more complex thing within the nasuverse that I'm referring to Leo but yeah you are correct technically. Nevertheless my point stands, a story where failure is the ultimate outcome with no chance of divergence is pointless as far as I'm concerned. Canon in the Nasuverse locks that in as fact, Altrouge can't be killed because future sight, Kirei is dead as is Gilgamesh and all the rest of the TM bad guys (except Zouken in some cases) and the rest of the villains would have then be OC's which I think defeats the point.
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F/HA doesn't have Gilgamesh dead, lantz, and there is so much you can do with the setting of Nasuverse without saying "rules ruin creativity and fun".
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F/HA is faulty as it is a time loop. And again Lyco, your opinion, not mine. I find the rules set forth ruin basically all the possibilities for story telling beyond retreading the stuff already said in canon.
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Free your mind, Neo.
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To you Umbra, not to me. I find the repetition of the concepts well established in canon to be faulty. I find the loss of cast members to be disappointing I find that the insufferable conditions in the larger world to make writing pointless.
Are you possibly jealous of more successful fic writers who follow the canon rules, and hence your crusade against everything that is canon and holy?
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No, I just know the limitations get stupid when you actually use all of them. There's no flexibility.
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>There's no flexibility
Then you simply aren't being creative enough.
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Arch, leave this thread, you aren't welcome here
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Creativity in fanfiction isn't throwing away the rules/guidelines and doing whatever the hell you want.
Creativity in fanfiction is knowing how to manipulate the rules/guidelines to your will - never breaking or throwing them away.
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Arch, leave this thread, you aren't welcome here
Has he said anything rude yet?
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I don't care at this point, none of you do anything but talk past me. There's no point is listening when you refuse to acknowledge the points I've made.
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Hypocritical, don't you think Lantz?
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No, it's not. My previous statements were all trying to get rid of this problem but as usual all that happens is people scream their opinions at me.
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No, it's not. My previous statements were all trying to get rid of this problem but as usual all that happens is people scream their opinions at me.
Hahaha no they were more "I have no idea how to write anything good, and can't write without shitting on the original work, please stop telling me this because I don't think so."
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I just want to ask this.
If you don't even bother with canon why do you even bother with the verse?
No I'm not trying to throw you out of the fandom, don't be paranoid.
I'm just stating that you can just be inspired by the concepts of the verse but do your own thing.
Is it because you're really attatched to the characters?
Also a side note. Saber has dragon in her or at least draconic blood. You know why it isn't just power gaining conract Lantz? It's because rule breaker exists and would have broken that contract to the dragon just like it broke Angra Mainyu's connection to Sakura. Satoshi needs to have dragon spirit at the very least inside of him too.
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I use canon Gray, I just put the characters first. I'm just not ready to glue myself to canon.
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I personally like to play around with canon's limitations. You ever heard of min/maxing lantz?
Yeah do that except with the universes own rules. That way you can get someone as awesome as you want.
Also I'd be fine with taking a few breaks from canon Lantz. It's just the directions you go with those breaks don't exactly make people feel very good.
Also Satoshi has dragon inside of him, no ifs ands or buts. You saw the post above and Saber didn't use such a contract she had a dragon inside of her.
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I have never heard any such thing regarding Saber, couldn't find anything to substantiate it either. And because white never mentions any contract or such I have to conclude otherwise.
I hate min maxing
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Yet you have created a character so overpowered that he can be used to help defeat what the entire Nasuverse couldn't defeat alone. Funny that.
Also I just noted that it couldn't be contract like you claimed due to rule breaker's ability to nullify contracts. Thus one can conclude a dragon is inside her and since you made the same thing happen to satoshi (instead of I don't know having him inherit the dragon blood because let's just overcomplicate things why don't we?) he needs to have a dragon actually inside of him.
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Last time Gray, Satoshi cannot kill CM and company alone. As Merlin says "we need EVERYONE"
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I was saying that he could help and his inclusion was the deciding factor between victory and defeat since they needed to plot his whole existance and everything.
He was basically min/maxed to kill CM is what I mean.
I was pointing out that irony Lantz.
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Saber doesn't have a dragon inside her
she has a "prismatic dragon reactor"
It's just a name, any hint of an actual dragon was just imagery in her censored sex scene
Unless you're implying Rin has a bunch of dolphins inside her
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I thought as much regarding Saber.
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Satoshi is classic wonderbaby self insert more powerful than the canon parents, hue.
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Moving on, as names says the dragon in saber is figurative in canon (although I fleshed it out as Saber has descended power from Uther, known as a conquer in White, ancestor having made a deal with a dragon prior) as such Satoshi's state has nothing to do with Saber in terms of canon.
also Kat the rude self insert remark is unacceptable as you are aware already. Please leave this thread and do not return.
the point I have been trying to make overall is this. Neither side wins when talking past each other. All you guys have done is scream about canon this and that, I'm not debating that in the regular fan timeline Kirei can live, I'm saying multiverse makes exploring other possibilities practical.
instead of getting bent out of shape I'd suggest you guys chill.
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Lantz I've told this to you before. I actually tend to care when helping people out. The reason I may seem a little serious is because I don't take helping people as joke. I may have relaxed but you won't relent.
You claim we talk past you. You talk past us too very frequently and while Kat and Arch may be very volotile in their delivery they make points. They state their criticisms. The self insert comment wasn't trolling. It was what they genuinly think. They aren't fucking with you just see you get angry Lantz. They are just saying that because they genuinly believe it.
Critisism in general isn't a hugbox Lantz. It requires that you take some of the Vitriol and have thick skin. You think after doing this for years (you do claim to be "Old Guard" afterall) you'd get thicker skin but no, you persist.
I've said I'm okay with a little canon screwery just ussually in crackfics and in minor ways.
It's just people see where you go with your changes form canon and don't like them. It's not just the rule breaking they think the things you have to break the rules to even do aren't good ideas Lantz.
I'm interested in just screwing around to, I basically rewrote the DMC lore from the ground up in my fic. Then it turned into original fiction with some characters that are inspired by canon characters instead.
I've asked this before Lantz. Outside of in universe reasons why do you need your main character to be so powerful, so old? Why do you need to do many of the breaks you take from canon on a narrative level?
Why do you persist with Canon if you hate being bound by it?
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Well by now can you really blame him for ignoring Arch?
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Gray, Kat was told Satoshi is not a self insert, he has continued to harass me with the accusation here and elsewhere. It violates the rules. End of story, he's out.
Canon is a good thing, Shinji's route is 98% canon, I'm just aware that sometimes canon needs to get in the back seat and shut up. In swords and sorcery where multiple realities and timelines are involved such is the case because otherwise it would be dull at best and a retread of F/HA at worst.
Swords and Sorcery is something that discards Canon for the sake of the characters. Going just by canon Ayako, Satsuki and many others,would have no importance, no moments of awesome. It still is grounded in the Nasuverse, there's just a lot of pothole filling done.
in any case this really isn't the thread for discussing that.
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Satsuki and many others,would have no importance, no moments of awesome
Nah, Nasu is fine writing Satsuki route himself, does not need gaijin fan fiction.
Ayako gets scenes in HA, and she has no powers anyway.
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Kat, leave.
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If you give the screen time to less used characters, but change the rules and the characters to that large of a degree, wouldn't that defeat the purpose of using that character?
I mean sure, Ayako could discover magecraft and wrestle with Type Saturn in one universe, but if its completely different from the actual Ayako, it might as well be Ayako in name only.
If you like those kinda fics though, may I suggest to you Fate's Gamble, an HP/FSN crossover on FF?
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Kat, leave.
No, Kat, you don't have to if you don't want to.
Lantz, Kat wasn't even rude.
And seriously, Satoshi is a guy who starts in depression at the beginning of his tale and through EVENTS breaks himself out of it and manages to fight and defeat something which might as well be the embodiment of the deepest part of his depression (Gilgamesh, as he took the things important to Satoshi away from him(family), as deep depression might end up doing to someone(through driving them away)), and once he does, he realizes he has a bigger foe to face afterwards (following the metaphor, this'd be real life and society) and manages to face and defeat(go through) it with the help of his friends, family and teachers, and comes out of it beloved and respected by those whose respect and love he wanted to earn(including himself).
Except in this case this guy's super powerful, has tons of gimmicks and is the son of two of your favorite characters from a franchise you enjoy.
For a guy who's not a self-insert, he sure doesn't seem to have fallen far from the creator's tree, +power and stuff.
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Yeah names it was rude, as for the rest, wrong on all counts.
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Satoshi is your superimposed image in the nasuverse, made ridiculously powerful, wise and popular through your imagination, breaking through your depression before you did, having a legions of "interesting" adventures and great friends and a goal in mind he is driven to accomplish. He's not you, but you sure saw through his eyes and made him act the way you wish you could, through adventures you wish you could have, with people you wish were your friends.
He's not you, he's what you wish you were.
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It's not even a Self-Insert. It's a Self-Idealization Insert. Some faux-Messianic supercreature that's so perfect and flawless and fantasticrino that it actually makes me want to hurl when I read about it.
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Wrong again names.
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You know that quote in Arch's signature? You are living up to it.
Back up your words with arguments, or accept it when people take your words' weight as if they were lighter than feathers, because they are.
Words are wind, and you are doing nothing but breaking wind all over your keyboard.
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Ok fine, I'll humor this train wreck of logic.
1) You're posting this nonsense in a thread that isn't for it.
2) you know fuck all about me, I don't mean that in a violent or angry context, I mean you literally know less than nothing about who I am. Case in point you created your theory out of a single flawed assumption.
3) I already stated when and how I use self insertion which further makes you wrong.
4) basically every last story point you got wrong in what they mean.
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Ok fine, I'll humor this train wreck of logic.
1) You're posting this nonsense in a thread that isn't for it.
2) you know fuck all about me, I don't mean that in a violent or angry context, I mean you literally know less than nothing about who I am. Case in point you created your theory out of a single flawed assumption.
3) I already stated when and how I use self insertion which further makes you wrong.
4) basically every last story point you got wrong in what they mean.
1:Hi kettle
2: What, that you were depressed and broke out of it? You said so. Repeatedly. You also said that Satoshi was depressed during the sakuratini and all that shit. So what is my flawed assumption?
3:Self insertion is not always voluntary. It's like how people in games take the protag(Even if said protag has a different family or backstory as them) and insert into him to the point of being angry when protag is insulted, and yet will deny or even never realize the self insertion. You just inserted yourself into the position of "Satoshi". Who, might I add to previous statements, also has as job titles careers you view as "heroic" and idolize, to further the idea of perfection he embodies for you.
4:Are you familiar with the literary practice referred to as Death Of The Author? Basically, your opinion on what certain scenes in your writing mean or symbolize is unimportant, it's what the reader understands as meaning from it, or sees as its symbolism.
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1) just making the point, this stuff isn't in line with the purpose of the thread.
2) I never created or developed Satoshi while under the influence of depression. The story has nothing to do with depression aside from the two themes of the story can be associated with the recovery from depression among many other things.
3) I'm not self inserting, it's a nice theory but what I am annoyed at is not the insults to the character, it's the lack of respect for the author's right to tell the story.
4) that would apply if you weren't trying to deconstruct the story and prove me somehow narcissistic. Since you are however I feel it's my right to tell you that you've gotten it wrong ever step of the way. The lessons he learns aren't up for a death of the author debate here, they are solidly what he learns, not what you think he does.
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4) that would apply if you weren't trying to deconstruct the story and prove me somehow narcissistic.
Objectively incorrect, it applies no matter what the author's thoughts or the reader's intentions. Literally the last sentence in your post is made invalid through it.
2)The character himself is depressed at the start of the story, medically depressed at least. You claimed so yourself. Was he really in the original, first draft of the story? Because stories change with time, and depression isn't exactly the best feeling to replicate without experiencing it.
3)The "getting pissed at insults directed at the character" was not the main point of my previous statement. What I meant was that involuntarily you put yourself in the place of your main character and made him act like yourself, were you in his place. The character became alternate setting you some part through figuring things out. This is partly normal, characters will always have some of the author in them. However the RP and statements made by you all point to Satoshi having your morals, beliefs, train of thought and even the knack of making himself sound unpleasant by accident. Combine this with his job set(most of them being jobs you consider "heroic," and you greatly admire these "heroes"), his abilities(Immortal, incredibly adept at healing and combat), his ties to your favorite characters, the respect he garners... things all point heavily towards self-idealization, even if it is involuntary. And yes, involuntarily or unthinkingly putting a character one does not believe he self-inserts into into an idealized, near-omnipotent state is something that happens.
Shirou-wanking is a prime time example for this. And despite news to the contrary, a lot of people self insert into Shirou. What helps is the first person aspect of it all, constantly being in his head, and the watering down of his character aspects in Fate, the route belonging to the most popular heroine and by extension the route most replayed. And people don't believe they self insert into him because "hey he's fucked up," they say consciously to themselves to deny themselves. And yet, Id, Ego, Superego.
You are doing the same multiple times over, idealizing what you've inserted into with great power, but as an OC, and with your mindset concerning the nasuverse (Hey, on thread topic!), you believe you have zero limits and made him unkillable and amazing and all stuff I've mentioned before.
And also, defending your character against people telling you he's bad is MORE likely to make you insert into him than before, because his is the role as someone being kicked down (by gilgamesh) and fighting back, just as you are fighting back against "haters".
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Yeah, I'm not sure exactly where to start here, firstly textwalls don't make you correct.
Satoshi is written as a hero, heroes are a perception. I don't write heroes as a subversive parody so yes the heroes I write share a view point with me in regards to certain aspects. That is a common practice in writing and does not indicate self insertion.
Satoshi was depressed in the original draft yes.
as for the rest, it's kinda laughable and more than a bit insulting.
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For what reason.
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Leo that is literally the worst question, without context I can't answer it.
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firstly textwalls don't make you correct.
Note that textwalls don't make me incorrect either.
I'll answer the rest once you answer Slam, so I can answer the whole of your rebuttal at once.
As for context:
as for the rest, it's kinda laughable and more than a bit insulting.
For what reason.
There.
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Well it paints me as an incapable hack writer with the mind of a six year old. So yeah imma laugh at it rather then be offended by the insulting nature of the assumptions.
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...Wait, you aren't?
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Well it paints me as an incapable hack writer with the mind of a six year old. So yeah imma laugh at it rather then be offended by the insulting nature of the assumptions.
how the hell do you even get this from what I said
no really, explain the train of thought
what "insults" you?
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You're assuming I'm stupid or ignorant enough to do any of that stuff. I'm not a genius but I'm no fool.
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Its a commentary, and people who read the work will have their own opinions. It doesn't necessarily have to be your beliefs either, as Satoshi stirs up thinking and conversation. If Names says what he thinks your character means, it could just be another interpretation to look over.
As for my previous question, you never answered it.
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Well this thread escalated quickly.
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You're assuming I'm stupid or ignorant enough to do any of that stuff. I'm not a genius but I'm no fool.
-unwitting self inserting, usually with a conscious denial of the fact, but subconscious gives no fucks
-strengthening/ameliorating of the target inserted into (Because hey, who doesn't want to see themselves as strong, or special, or successful?)
-Example presented of cases related (Shirou-wanking)
Explain to me how these have to do with the subject's intelligence. Psychology, son.
Might I add, Satoshi shares not only your beliefs, dream jobs and train of thought, he shares your hobbies(comics and gundams, amongst others).
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Ok, the entire point of this thread is wasted, I'm done. Think whatever you want but don't speak to me again.
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The Lantz. He only sees Names and Arch at the moment I see.
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So is this a common occurrence here?
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Look Qwerty, the point of the thread was to get us to stop talking past each other, unfortunately no one wants to listen. Thus the thread is ruined. As to your questions, I assumed you were joking.
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Lantz always gets offended by criticism and has threads closed sooner or later.
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(http://x4.fjcdn.com/comments/Stone+cold+killa+_2b958ea4358cae2dd31f8d6d64984dec.jpg)
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Look Qwerty, the point of the thread was to get us to stop talking past each other, unfortunately no one wants to listen. Thus the thread is ruined. As to your questions, I assumed you were joking.
The nobody in this quote includes you, might I say.
Do you wish for me to hide your soiled underwear lock the thread?
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I would approve of that.
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...the point of the thread was to get us to stop talking past each other, unfortunately no one wants to listen.
That street goes both ways, bub.
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Except it doesn't because I blatantly stated that I was never debating canon. I'm not talking past you, the rest of you however continued to scream facts about canon to disprove the idea of multiple worlds and such. None of which actually did prove your point about impossibilities, you just demanded I fill in the answers immediately. Then instead of accepting the concept you just kept whining.
As for locking the thread, I don't care. I'd prefer you actually use your eyes Names, I don't want you to speak to me again.
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Look Qwerty, the point of the thread was to get us to stop talking past each other, unfortunately no one wants to listen. Thus the thread is ruined. As to your questions, I assumed you were joking.
So you ignore "jokes" then? Also my questions happen to be valid by the standards you made for this thread.
Are you still sore about the mild joke I made on your other thread?
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Mostly yes, most jokes don't have a logical response to be offered. Your previous joke consisted of all caps, shouting isn't mild.
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You still haven't answered his question though.
I said that I'm okay with breaks from canon a few times. It's just the things you do with that cannon breaking is honestly confusing to some.
I've asked you why he's several million years old, commented about the implausibility of him having a relationship with anyone at all (the age gap is so creepy it's terrifying), why he needs all this power that he isn't supposed to use, how he's integral into defeating a being that can scare people who are capable of breaking the laws of physics and magic (two true magic wielders and one of the most famous wizards known to mankind) and so such on a narritive level. I can handwave away anything I want with or without canon breaking.
I've given you this example before but here's moment of that: In the fire Shirous found a kaleidostick and still had avalon. His origin had then changed to both sword and kaleidoscope at the same time. He's now archer with the second magic. This breaks canon just as much if not less than your stuff does. The question we ask now is why do this narratively. It would give a character we love as an underdog a bunch of free power. That's prety darn stupid as Shirou's struggle is against his lack of ability and power in reaching an impossible ideal. Giving him power for it is pointless and defeats the point of the character. In speaking of which Lantz, What is the point of Satoshi? You know beyond the usual answer of "It's writing for fun, chill guys." What is the narrative point.
Are you a fan of Naruto by the way? It seems like you'd be fan of that series.
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I hate Naruto, that show sucks.
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Mind responding to the rest?
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Wow, the ignoring of everything but my DBZ joke (it wasn't even much of a joke).
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The rest Gray is rehashing the same but why crap. You don't know how canon breaks in the story so please stop.
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He's asking what's the point of Satoshi. If Shirou's is the pursuit of an impossible ideal then what defines Satoshi?
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Except it doesn't because I blatantly stated that I was never debating canon. I'm not talking past you, the rest of you however continued to scream facts about canon to disprove the idea of multiple worlds and such. None of which actually did prove your point about impossibilities, you just demanded I fill in the answers immediately. Then instead of accepting the concept you just kept whining.
As for locking the thread, I don't care. I'd prefer you actually use your eyes Names, I don't want you to speak to me again.
I wasn't debating canon or your usage of it either though, in this thread. I didn't say squat about your multiple worlds, and I didn't speak of impossibilities in this thread either.
This entire post of yours feels like it's in the wrong thread.
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In which context umbra.
I was speaking generally in the course of the thread Names. Your Self Insertion nonsense just wound up being the straw. After all I said it once, Satoshi is not a self insert, you ignored this (thus talking past me) and chose to be offensive and persistent about it.
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When you created Satoshi was there any idea that you defined him around? Shirou as I stated before is a guy who chases after an impossible ideal, and he struggles with all his will to try to make it possible. That defines him, and makes Shirou who he is. What defines Satoshi? What drives him? Does he have a goal?
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I was speaking generally in the course of the thread Names. Your Self Insertion nonsense just wound up being the straw. After all I said it once, Satoshi is not a self insert, you ignored this (thus talking past me) and chose to be offensive and persistent about it.
I brought up unwitting self insertion, as such your denial of self insertion and my followup in regards to the original idea (unwitting self-insertion) with it actually makes sense.
It was a "you may think so, BUT" and as such was just an extension of the topic. Not talking past you, at you. Learn the difference.
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That may have been your intent Names but you just came off as pushy rude and insulting.
his goal transitions from Avenger to protector. The thing that drives him is hope. First twisted and then honest.
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You kind of have a tendency to ignore large parts of what we say man. I post walls of text, you apparently have me on ignore because that screws with your phone or something but sometimes you only just answer one thing and leave the rest hanging. It makes it seem like this is a conscious denial because you don't feel like answering to those who discuss things with you. When stick to a contrasting view like Names here you seem to really like just saying don't talk to me anymore. While somepeople do insult and snark don't label them as subhuman and incapable of making any amount of sense just because they hurt your feelings a little Andy.
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I have you on ignore on bl because bl has loading issues, text walls (not something that should ever be on a forum) inflame the problem.
who's Andy?
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Sorry mixed up a name in my head.
Can you expand on the the themes please?
Also grammar wise what's your hangup dyslexia? Some other condition?
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Not sure how you want me to expand.
grammar wise my issue is private
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Being quite mysterious there aren't you.
Can you at least confirm whether it is ESL, a disorder or just bad grammar?
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Privacy is not mystery Gray.
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You have anonymity thus there i no real consequence in telling me is all. I even just asked in general terms. The first two are pretty general. If you're willing to talk about depression you went through it's hard to believe you have something that's worse to share than that.
On another note how does the several million years of age, reality marble and the other things that people find questionable about his backstory help expand those themes?
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There's his theme and then the story themes, they interact but are separate.
regardless of what you think Gray any further questions about my private matters is off limits.
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Okay then. You're a little touchy, you know that?
I was asking for general picture man about the grammar issue as these excommunications seem rather constant and it just has you wonder why? If it's a treatable problem I'd just want to see if you're looking for ways to help yourself especially if you plan to write anything remotely seriously.
Alrighty. If he's your protag the story and character themes do tend to overlap heavily and a good portion of the character has to be tied with those themes. Sure you can have some extra thigns added on here and there but the if you just keep on layering on things the character loses their narrative purpose and gains many superflous (and aggravating based upon the reaction you've been getting for years) features.
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Exercising my right to privacy (especially on the internet) is not touchy.
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That may have been your intent Names but you just came off as pushy rude and insulting.
The amount of times for you that "it wasn't your intent" but you came off as the same or leagues worse without seeing yourself deserving of any blame is nigh-impossible to count.
Think about that for a second.
As for me, I recognize my failing and will work to correct it.
text walls (not something that should ever be on a forum)
This statement is stupid.
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The difference is situational Names, I was very obviously uncomfortable
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No, there is straight up no difference at all. Observe your past self and learn your failings.
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Offending people is one thing names but when I know people are uncomfortable I stop being insistent about it. You didn't.
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What about every time you would force in another "I didn't do anything" or "Stop lying" or "stop shitting on me" when Alice was very clearly uncomfortable (angry is uncomfortable)? Did you not notice that every time you did made her angrier or something?
As said above: there was no difference at all.
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Defending one's self is different, given the things she's called me I don't think defending myself is out of line.
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Defending one's self is different, given the things she's called me I don't think defending myself is out of line.
So you completely ignore the stress and drama she has to deal with because of you.
And I think I'm sorely lacking in empathy.
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Lyco do not preach as if it's only stressful for one side, that's ignorant.
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Okay, different example: Crossover thread, FF13. Guy comes on, gives an idea involving ff13, you keep hammering on the game even after he comes in and reacts negatively, or as one could say, uncomfortably.
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If he's preaching, I'm a fucking magical wizard that shoots rainbows from his ass.
You really have no sense of empathy.
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Been awhile Names, so I can't exactly confirm or deny that, however, I can say with certainty that the ill intent was directed at the game, not the user. Further neither of us created said work so I wasn't insulting something he created.
I was simply being honest about something I paid hard earned money for and was seriously disappointed with.
your point is however that I'm being insensitive and perhaps I was but that isn't the events with Alice. One is directly personal, the other is not.
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My point is that you pointed at me and said "I don't continue after clear discomfort, but you just did,"when you most certainly did do exactly what you're claiming you're innocent of, and have nothing but excuses to offer as rebuttal when called out.
My point is that you have a double standard, and you need to realize that you do, because it pops up for many things and pops out to many people.
My point is that you have to recognize your failing and work to correct it, like I realize my own and constantly work to correct them.
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Personal and impersonal offense is different. I'm not denying the ability to offend, I'm saying one is intentional and other isn't. I'm not saying I didn't offend him. I'm saying that I wasn't trying to and that means more than just a hand wave.
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Why would you rag on FF13, there's like three hot girls.
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And all 3 are les, or at least one of them is a shota.
Also, afroman most awesome of the cast. Fucking chocobo in his hair.
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Personal and impersonal offense is different. I'm not denying the ability to offend, I'm saying one is intentional and other isn't. I'm not saying I didn't offend him. I'm saying that I wasn't trying to and that means more than just a hand wave.
Excuses.
Why would you rag on FF13, there's like three hot girls.
Ikr
Also, afroman most awesome of the cast. Fucking chocobo in his hair.
Ikr
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Cuz SURE, we can shoot our enemies with our guns! I mean, Lightning, you got a GUNblade, why not shoot the guys who are shooting you?! What are you, AXE COP?! Then get an AXE! Also, why is my BLACK mage/gunner have more base health than my OFFENSIVE FRONT LINE WARRIOR?!
Q. say your opponent is not a fairy, nor have akashic powers or mystic eyes of death (it shouldn't have worked in the first place), what can Satoshi's opponents do to prevent Satoshi from completely kicking their asses?
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Erm, this isn't Lantz's Q&A thread....
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To you Names, not to me. I see being offended by an impersonal remark like "I hate this game" and being offended by a personal remark like "You're a misogynist bastard" as different.
moving back onto the subject of the thread. I want people to stop talking past each other because of all the problems it causes. In the case of the Nasuverse go ahead and obsess about canon, hold it in whatever regard you want but recognize each person's right to do as they wish as well.
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You know I don't mean to be the resident downer but I'm just surprized both sides haven't just completely agreed to disagree. In other words these arguments are so futile and pointless that I'm surprised neither side just hasn't decided to go pack up and quit it.
Lantz you don't give a damn about anon.
Everyone who aruges with you does.
You clash on it and never come to a consensus on those points.
I'm saying I just dislike some of the things you've done with your characters in ways completely unrelated to canon (I'm now treating your works like original fics simply because it's easier on my SoD). I keep on asking about the narrative point of things because of that as discussing canon with you Lantz is a fool's errand.
To all of you I announce abandon all hope. It isn't worth it. Let Lantz have his fun in his canon ignorant bliss. (I don't mean to insult you Lantz with that statement I'm just saying that you either are ignorant of canon or ignore it completely)
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I'm not ignorant of canon, I just accept that swords and sorcery was written before a great deal of the additional material was out.
I don't start brand new works in the same way. The difference may not seem much to you Gray but it's significant.
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To you Names, not to me. I see being offended by an impersonal remark like "I hate this game" and being offended by a personal remark like "You're a misogynist bastard" as different.
Offended is offended.
Excuses also, are excuses.I'm not ignorant of canon, I just accept that swords and sorcery was written before a great deal of the additional material was out.
But you also ignore canon that came out with the VN
Body reflects the soul
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Ok names just stop, clearly you won't agree.
as for canon that came out with the VN which are you referring to?
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Whoops. Made a mistake on the Thread. Lantz, can't you just switch to a different sub topic? You arguing with Names is eventually going to lead to what happened with Arch. You are in charge of this thread, and you have all the power. Just agree to disagree like Gray said.
I will agree with you that FFXIII sucks. Seriously, its only like the older final fantasies, but sped up. The game wasn't as ground breaking as I expected, and their old trailers lied.
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I'm talking about arguing with Lantz in general.
BTW: the soul reflection thing was mentioned by zouken as to why he still looks like decrepit old man after consuming someone else.
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Never violated that rule. Satoshi retains his form for other reasons.
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Look at that. He had reasons prevent that contract from actually giving downsides. That's why I just say abandon all hope. Give up and let Lantz have his fun.
Lantz screw around have fun. I still say Original Fiction and splitting your OC into other characters who can tackle your large concepts on a more individual level would be better but if you refuse them's the breaks. I can't convince you as you are apparently "old gaurd" who has heard all of everyone's arguments before and think everyone who is trying to argue with you is in the wrong about things or the fact you are never going to acknowledge X or Y pont regardless of how many times people tell it to you. Reasoning with you is pointless and I shouldn't care about it at all.
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I don't care about the age
I care about dragon
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What about dragon? The fact that Merlin apparently went "You wanna fuse souls with this kid?" and the dragon said yes? Or the fact that soul fusion should have given him scales and a tail?
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Gray you're getting a little sarcastic, please draw it back
@Names and Umbra
I have a whole thread for questions, use it.
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Gray was honestly trying to critique you nicely and now you've made him lose confidence in you. People here are asking you questions, but they barely get an answer due to how you don't want to give out anything more than vague answers. A lot of people here are getting tired of that, and want better explanations for why your characters and setting are the way they are and how they are different from how canon is.
I know that changing the rules to your verse is hard for you, but maybe take some of the others' words into consideration? They're mostly snarky due to how much of the rules and character personalities have to be bent for your verse to work.
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I don't care about the age
I care about dragon
You are a good man, Nachos.