Dark Side of the Moon
Type Moon => Fanfiction => Lantz's fics => Topic started by: lantzblades on April 17, 2013, 12:20:29 AM
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Ok The idea behind this thread is to create TM Fanfiction in a collaborative way. in this case interested parties create an open world story and they write a story in alternating chapters (in example I write a chapter, then Mike or say Gab or such would write the next chapter and so on)
this way we can create an interesting continuity together, if anyone is interested in this idea please say so.
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Yeah, I'm definitely up for this.
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Hmm... I'm interested, but I need an idea of what the rules are, if any. I mean, there might be stuff you wouldn't want to be put in here, and stuff you want put in here in a limited fashion.
Other than that, I got nothing to say right now, I'm afraid.
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the only two rules are
the over arching story is something to be discussed and that editorial mandate is how a chapter, one shot, or other events and details become canon within the overall story
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Alright. I just wanted to be sure what the rules were before I did anything.
Wait, hold on, what about crossover stuff? Is this meant to be only a TM-related story?
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Well, presumably everyone needs to be able to write it, which makes crossovers difficult to work. I don't necessarily think offshoot crossovers are a problem, though.
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Alright, just making sure, thankfully I get what you mean.
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Yeah, I don't think it's a problem in principle, but there's no way we could consistently include cross-over elements in a collaborative fic, and I think having cameos would turn it into a mess. I think it's much better for it to just be a Nasuverse fic.
However, it's possible to write spin-off stories in the universe (either canonical or non-canonical), and I see no reason why you couldn't include cross-overs in those.
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Thanks for bringing that one up.
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Alright. I just wanted to be sure what the rules were before I did anything.
Wait, hold on, what about crossover stuff? Is this meant to be only a TM-related story?
I would say crossovers are ok but only in the marvel DC sense of the else worlds continuity.
this means that while the crossover occur they occur and contact only in regards to other crossovers. the main canon doesn't acknowledge the crossovers happening.
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Unfortunately, you lost me, which continuity?
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Elseworlds is a cross company imprint to contain crossovers between marvel and DC characters
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OK, so, what would everyone want to see from this fic?
My interests should be generally obvious, at least initially. I want Sakura to have a decent role and to get saved, be happy etc. Also, if it does have any lemon content (I'm not sure if it will), then some Sakura sex and BDSM stuff would be good....
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The main story shouldn't have lemon in it. Canonical instances of sex between the characters is fine if discussed and approved but I think those should be one shots and asides apart from the actual story here.
in my case I think we should start pre tsukhime and pre fate and build a new continuity from the ground up, i'd like to avoid senseless deaths.
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Yeah, it definitely makes sense to start before the canon games, it gives us a lot more flexibility.
And, whilst I wouldn't agree that the main story absolutely shouldn't contain lemon, I do agree it shouldn't have a lemon focus, and we shouldn't design it around lemon content.
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I think the main story shouldn't for the sake of readers who don't read that stuff. I think one shots and sides etcetera are a place for that stuff and like I said it would be in continuity with the story just not in the main story itself. it just keeps things tasteful and classy.
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Yeah, OK, fair enough. I guess if any in-story sex happens we can just write it as an offshoot. It also means one of us doesn't get lumbered with writing a lemon chapter even if we don't want to....
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Exactly, leave the lemon to the interested readers and writers. As for the stories I'm aimming for a lack of crap deaths in fate and inclusion for all the heroines in tsukihime
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So, wait, do we take turns writing out chapters and such? I just thought of this question and felt that it should be answered.
Also, where do we start writing the actual story content, guys?
On a side note, what crap deaths, lantz?
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Exactly, leave the lemon to the interested readers and writers. As for the stories I'm aimming for a lack of crap deaths in fate and inclusion for all the heroines in tsukihime
Yeah, I agree.
So, wait, do we take turns writing out chapters and such? I just thought of this question and felt that it should be answered.
Yeah, that's the idea.
Also, where do we start writing the actual story content, guys?
Well, when we've decided the general outline and also if anyone else is going to join in.
On a side note, what crap deaths, lantz?
Well, Ilya in UBW, for example.
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So, wait, do we take turns writing out chapters and such? I just thought of this question and felt that it should be answered.
Also, where do we start writing the actual story content, guys?
On a side note, what crap deaths, lantz?
these would chapters in turn to create a story (unless it's a one shot or short aside) I write one chapter then mike writes a chapter and so on like that.
we'll discuss our aims for the start and then elect a writer to start the first chapter of the story
as for crap deaths in canon I'd say rider in ubw, ilya in same saber,caster,berserker and lancer in HF and so on.
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Okay, I get it now, guys.
Thanks for clearing that one up.
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Honestly, some of the servants probably will have to have somewhat "crappy" deaths, although I would agree we should minimise it as much as possible, particularly with the more popular and nice servants like Rider and Saber.
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Yeah, I'm inclined to agree with that, unfortunately.
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characters can die i'm not against that, what i'm against is it being a shitty death. make the death count is what I mean.
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Uh-huh. I can understand.
Still, this shouldn't be like Nobody Dies, right?
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Uh-huh. I can understand.
Still, this shouldn't be like Nobody Dies, right?
the what now?
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It's a popular Evangelion fanfic based around a concept that essentially says "What if nobody from the main series died?"
Also, the story is getting stale, from what I can understand.
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wasn't around when I was in the fandom...sounds like I should be glad for that much.
and no it shouldn't be at the outset made to have no one die
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Yes, lantz, be very glad that it wasn't around when you were in the fandom.
As for the other parts of this thread... when's the first chapter going to be written? Do we have to decide among ourselves who gets the first shot?
I'd be more than happy to get a chapter written, but I need to know what you guys are expecting for chapter length, if anything.
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Yes, lantz, be very glad that it wasn't around when you were in the fandom.
Well, I doubt this fic will have too many deaths, at least of the more heroic characters (and especially non-servants). We'd never come to any agreement on it, and it would limit us for any later stories.
As for the other parts of this thread... when's the first chapter going to be written? Do we have to decide among ourselves who gets the first shot?
I'd be more than happy to get a chapter written, but I need to know what you guys are expecting for chapter length, if anything.
Yeah, I think we just have to decide between ourselves. We should work out the basic plot first, though, so the guy writing the first chapter doesn't basically decide the nature of the story single-handedly.
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Very well. I was just being curious like usual.
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I do enjoy the heroes succeeding personally.
and yes plot first then one of us writes the opening chapter.
Edit: as for the opening we should plan the plot in tandem
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I do enjoy the heroes succeeding personally.
Well, of course. Not sure what else you expected....
and yes plot first then one of us writes the opening chapter.
Yeah, makes sense.
Edit: as for the opening we should plan the plot in tandem
What?
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Yeah, I'm confused by that statement as well, planning the plot in tandem.
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in tandem refers to Tsukihime, fate stay night (and possibly later Extra) in that we plan the plots of both events in tandem instead of planning all of fate and then all of Tsukihime.
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Ah, OK.
Well, I'm unlikely to be able to do that much with the Tsuki part....
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We'll figure it out, i'm aware we're lacking a ton of tsukihime influence so i'll serve as that for the moment.
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So, anyway, we should discuss what we want to see from this, and how we want to set it up. I assume the FSN side will cover the Grail War mainly. Hmm, although, actually, I wonder if it might be interesting to change some things before the war, to give us a different setting....
I'm not sure exactly what to change, though, probably something Sakura-related. I'd still like her to summon Rider, though, I like Rider.
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from a canon stand point only a Saber Lancer and Archer need to be summoned class wise, this means the classes of the remaining four servants are up for debate. To canon Cu Culain, Arturia Pendragon and Archer (Heroic Spirit Emiya) must be summoned as Lancer, Saber and Archer respectively.
Summoning Medusa is fine but she doesn't have to be rider.
I'd prefer not to change anything leading up to the fifth war, it creates far too many complications.
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from a canon stand point only a Saber Lancer and Archer need to be summoned class wise, this means the classes of the remaining four servants are up for debate. To canon Cu Culain, Arturia Pendragon and Archer (Heroic Spirit Emiya) must be summoned as Lancer, Saber and Archer respectively.
Summoning Medusa is fine but she doesn't have to be rider.
Well, making her not a Rider does massively complicate things, particularly if you're not changing any of the other masters. Caster is the only class that wouldn't be considerably worse than having her as a Rider, and that means a) losing Rule Breaker and b) having to find someone else for Caster's canon master to summon.
I'd prefer not to change anything leading up to the fifth war, it creates far too many complications.
OK, fair enough.
Although, it could potentially make Sakura's situation easier to resolve, which is definitely a good thing. We don't want to focus the entire story around saving Sakura, really, but given that I'm involved saving her is an obvious requirement.
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Well, making her not a Rider does massively complicate things, particularly if you're not changing any of the other masters. Caster is the only class that wouldn't be considerably worse than having her as a Rider, and that means a) losing Rule Breaker and b) having to find someone else for Caster's canon master to summon.
Caster's original master can change, dude has no name,
not sure why you think changing rider's class is an issue.
we can have duplicate classes after all.
Although, it could potentially make Sakura's situation easier to resolve
it would make everything else more complicated.
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Well, making her not a Rider does massively complicate things, particularly if you're not changing any of the other masters. Caster is the only class that wouldn't be considerably worse than having her as a Rider, and that means a) losing Rule Breaker and b) having to find someone else for Caster's canon master to summon.
Caster's original master can change, dude has no name,
Well, that would be changing the pre-war backstory....
not sure why you think changing rider's class is an issue.
we can have duplicate classes after all.
Well, I'd rather not duplicate the classes, because you're getting on rather shaky ground there. But, regardless, I'm not sure what class would fit her better than Rider....
Although, it could potentially make Sakura's situation easier to resolve
it would make everything else more complicated.
Well, it makes setting the story up to begin with more complicated, but once we've got it going it could make fixing stuff a lot easier.
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Well, that would be changing the pre-war backstory....
yes to a point although not in the manner of changing causality.
Well, I'd rather not duplicate the classes, because you're getting on rather shaky ground there. But, regardless, I'm not sure what class would fit her better than Rider....
I guess but i'm just saying she can be something else, I'd prefer to have a real seventh hero though in the story
Well, it makes setting the story up to begin with more complicated, but once we've got it going it could make fixing stuff a lot easier.
i'd prefer standard continuity because altering events alters characters.
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Well, that would be changing the pre-war backstory....
yes to a point although not in the manner of changing causality.
Well, yes, true.
Well, I'd rather not duplicate the classes, because you're getting on rather shaky ground there. But, regardless, I'm not sure what class would fit her better than Rider....
I guess but i'm just saying she can be something else, I'd prefer to have a real seventh hero though in the story
What?
Well, it makes setting the story up to begin with more complicated, but once we've got it going it could make fixing stuff a lot easier.
i'd prefer standard continuity because altering events alters characters.
Well, yeah, of course. But, equally, it makes it a lot easier to give Sakura the role she deserves without making the entire story Sakura-centric.
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What?
Well Kojiro is an ok character but I always thought he's largely pointless in a set up like this, we'd just be flat out repeating canon with him as the seventh.
Well, yeah, of course. But, equally, it makes it a lot easier to give Sakura the role she deserves without making the entire story Sakura-centric.
the thing about a story like this is that we don't have to worry about that.
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What?
Well Kojiro is an ok character but I always thought he's largely pointless in a set up like this, we'd just be flat out repeating canon with him as the seventh.
Ah, OK, I see.
Well, I am not too comfortable with the idea of just randomly turning other characters into Assassin on very vague pretenses. Kojiro was Assassin because Medea cheated, normally Assassin is meant to be Hassan.
Well, yeah, of course. But, equally, it makes it a lot easier to give Sakura the role she deserves without making the entire story Sakura-centric.
the thing about a story like this is that we don't have to worry about that.
Well, no, but we also don't want to be basically repeating HF....
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Well, I am not too comfortable with the idea of just randomly turning other characters into Assassin on very vague pretenses. Kojiro was Assassin because Medea cheated, normally Assassin is meant to be Hassan.
Hassan is dull, and they do not have to be assassin.
Well, no, but we also don't want to be basically repeating HF....
as long as we avoid the idiot ball we won't.
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Well, I am not too comfortable with the idea of just randomly turning other characters into Assassin on very vague pretenses. Kojiro was Assassin because Medea cheated, normally Assassin is meant to be Hassan.
Hassan is dull, and they do not have to be assassin.
Canonically-speaking they are meant to be.
Well, no, but we also don't want to be basically repeating HF....
as long as we avoid the idiot ball we won't.
Well, yes, true. It would have to follow HF to a certain extent, though....
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Canonically-speaking they are meant to be.
i was referring to the seventh servant.
Well, yes, true. It would have to follow HF to a certain extent, though....
no, no it won't.
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Canonically-speaking they are meant to be.
i was referring to the seventh servant.
Ah, OK.
Well, yes, true. It would have to follow HF to a certain extent, though....
no, no it won't.
Well, in that it will have to deal with Zouken and get the worms out of Sakura somehow....
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Well, in that it will have to deal with Zouken and get the worms out of Sakura somehow....
that's just killing zouken, that doesn't have to follow HF
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Well, in that it will have to deal with Zouken and get the worms out of Sakura somehow....
that's just killing zouken, that doesn't have to follow HF
Well, no, but I'd also want Sakura to get involved in the story, rather than being saved and then basically ignored (or having only a very peripheral role).
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Well, no, but I'd also want Sakura to get involved in the story, rather than being saved and then basically ignored (or having only a very peripheral role).
i imagine importance will rotate depending on arc and chapter.
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Well, no, but I'd also want Sakura to get involved in the story, rather than being saved and then basically ignored (or having only a very peripheral role).
i imagine importance will rotate depending on arc and chapter.
Well, yeah, of course, but that does require her to have a role to play aside from being saved....
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Well, yeah, of course, but that does require her to have a role to play aside from being saved....
I do think that's something to discuss once she gets saved, not before really.
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Well, yeah, of course, but that does require her to have a role to play aside from being saved....
I do think that's something to discuss once she gets saved, not before really.
Not entirely, because how she gets saved will affect that (particularly Rider's fate).
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Not entirely, because how she gets saved will affect that (particularly Rider's fate).
well before that, we need to confirm the servants
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Not entirely, because how she gets saved will affect that (particularly Rider's fate).
well before that, we need to confirm the servants
Well, yes, obviously.
Like I said before, I'm not overly bothered, aside from saying that I'd like to keep Rider as Sakura's servant.
Also, if we're not using Caster's canonical master we need to find a replacement....
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Well, yes, obviously.
Like I said before, I'm not overly bothered, aside from saying that I'd like to keep Rider as Sakura's servant.
well ok
Saber
Archer
Lancer
Rider
are in as the canon ones
three slots left
as for changing casters master I elect Ayako. either coming across or summoning her.
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Well, having Ayako as Caster's master wouldn't actually be that bad an idea, because it would mean being able to uer her magic to assist Sakura. Conversely, though, it also removes a potential antagonist, and adds someone to the protagonists, which possibly makes them too strong.
Also, this is looking suspiciously like the story we were developing on old DSM....
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I don't remember it
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Well, OK, fair enough. It is looking rather similar, though....
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perhaps, ok, regarding hercules, keep him or not?
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I have an idea for that one, lantz.
Keep the Berserker class, but make it so that they get someone else by accident, namely Lu Pu (mistakenly named Lu Bu by silly translators that don't know how to read Chinese properly).
Do you like it, or is that not viable in your opinion?
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perhaps, ok, regarding hercules, keep him or not?
Well, I'm not really bothered, honestly. Probably we should keep him, if only in order that he can act as a viable enemy who isn't Zouken or Gil. We can't have the entire war focus solely on beating Gil, after all.
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actually we could build up to fighting Gil, I meant it would be nice to not see lol mongrels Gilgamesh for once.
as for lu bu no, none of the three kingdoms stuff.
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Yeah, sure we can "build up" to fighting Gil, but I'm not sure that works as basically the entire story....
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why not? i mean skimishes will happen but why not one bad guy rather than a cluster fuck?
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Because you can only skirmish so many times with the same guy before it stops being interesting. With Gil, it's worse, because if he pulls out Ea it's basically game over....
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I think between Sakura, The fight with Gil, Recruiting Bazzet, dealing with ilya, caster and shinji we are pretty full up, dividing and extending the fight further will get more than a few characters killed.
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I think between Sakura, The fight with Gil, Recruiting Bazzet, dealing with ilya, caster and shinji we are pretty full up, dividing and extending the fight further will get more than a few characters killed.
Yeah, but we don't have to deal with Shinji (at least not much), and if we give Caster to Ayako we won't have to deal with her either.
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Yeah, but we don't have to deal with Shinji (at least not much), and if we give Caster to Ayako we won't have to deal with her either.
shinji would get rider to start with, untangling that is a whole thing, and we'd still have to deal with caster character wise.
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Yeah, but we don't have to deal with Shinji (at least not much), and if we give Caster to Ayako we won't have to deal with her either.
shinji would get rider to start with, untangling that is a whole thing, and we'd still have to deal with caster character wise.
Well, yes, Shinji would get Rider initially, but that's probably not going to last all that long given that that means Sakura has little involvement. And, yes, we have to deal with Caster in that sense, but not fight her.
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that's still something to consider, we're stuffed
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that's still something to consider, we're stuffed
What?
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the grail war happens in a two week span, so we are a bit packed.
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the grail war happens in a two week span, so we are a bit packed.
Ah, I see.
Sorry, but over here "stuffed" is often used to mean "have no hope", so I thought you were saying that and I wondered why....
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i was referring to a turkey which is stuffed.
getting back to it, seventh servant, if not kojiro then who? and what class
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i was referring to a turkey which is stuffed.
Yeah, I got that....
getting back to it, seventh servant, if not kojiro then who? and what class
Honestly, I'm not sure. I'm quite OK with Kojiro, but he wouldn't make sense anyway if we remove Kuzuki from the equation.
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Honestly, I'm not sure. I'm quite OK with Kojiro, but he wouldn't make sense anyway if we remove Kuzuki from the equation.
mordred works for assassin
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Really? What qualifies her?
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Regicide, Patricide and being hidden from everyone.
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Regicide, Patricide and being hidden from everyone.
Openly killing someone doesn't make you an Assassin....
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actually just killing someone in terms of the class makes you one.
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actually just killing someone in terms of the class makes you one.
Source?
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Fuyuki I think, it's true that hassan is the typical summoned assassin but strictly to qualify for the class like with berserker needing to have gone insane assassin just needs to have killed someone.
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Hmm, I see....
Well, that sounds rather odd to me.
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it works, as i said hassan is boring
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it works, as i said hassan is boring
Well, it depends how you use him. But, yes, in general he's hard to make an effective enemy, because he either wins or remains hidden....
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he's a faceless legionary, the hassan group is interesting but none of the individuals are very interesting. and i want all the servants to be.
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Well, yeah, I guess that is true.
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Exactly so using another character would be best.
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Yeah, true.
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and using Mordred gives character development to Saber (assuming we don't change hercules with Lancelot) provide her character development is important.
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and using Mordred gives character development to Saber (assuming we don't change hercules with Lancelot) provide her character development is important.
Hmm, yeah, true. It also gives an interesting contrast with Shirou, potentially, due to his father.
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I guess that could be a thing, personally i didn't see it affecting shirou.
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I guess that could be a thing, personally i didn't see it affecting shirou.
Well, no, perhaps not. There is quite a lot of family-related stuff going on, though, with Rin/Sakura and Shirou/Ilya.
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exactly, i suspect he'll be too busy to compare mordred to himself.
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Well, OK, so, we need to work out who will get Caster and Assassin. We also need to start working on the plot.
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Ayako and Shinji
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Ayako and Shinji
Well, firstly, how do they get hold of their respective servants.
Secondly, I'm rather worried about how it will affect the balance of the story. Ayako having Caster means Caster is on the side of the good guys, and Shinji having Assassin is difficult to work with given that Sakura will be freed of Zouken relatively early on.
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Kirei could be the impetus for shinji getting a servant assassin.
and ayako getting caster won't affect the balance of the story, not in a major way as caster will be weaker
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Kirei could be the impetus for shinji getting a servant assassin.
True.
How does that work with Sakura getting freed etc., though?
and ayako getting caster won't affect the balance of the story, not in a major way as caster will be weaker
Well, it removes Caster as an antagonist. Also, I'm not sure Caster would be OK with being weaker....
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she doesn't have the ability to compare herself to her canon self so she wouldn't know she's weaker, as for shinji getting assassin it doesn't matter about zouken being alive
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she doesn't have the ability to compare herself to her canon self so she wouldn't know she's weaker
No, but she can tell that she has very little prana....
as for shinji getting assassin it doesn't matter about zouken being alive
It matters about Shinji being alive, and not scared shitless of Rider, Rin or Shirou....
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No, but she can tell that she has very little prana....
you're implying that she's power mad.
It matters about Shinji being alive, and not scared shitless of Rider, Rin or Shirou....
what?
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No, but she can tell that she has very little prana....
you're implying that she's power mad.
No, just rather untrusting and wanting to be strong enough to protect herself.
It matters about Shinji being alive, and not scared shitless of Rider, Rin or Shirou....
what?
Well, I can't imagine Shinji coming out of a scenario where Zouken is killed and Sakura saved without Rin or Rider beating the shit out of him....
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No, just rather untrusting and wanting to be strong enough to protect herself.
eh, i somehow doubt that, particularly with so many allies.
Well, I can't imagine Shinji coming out of a scenario where Zouken is killed and Sakura saved without Rin or Rider beating the shit out of him....
as long as he's alive his ego problems would cause him to seek revenge.
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No, just rather untrusting and wanting to be strong enough to protect herself.
eh, i somehow doubt that, particularly with so many allies.
Well, perhaps, but they have to fight at some point (the servants do, at least, even if the masters won't), or else they'll all disappear. Except perhaps Rider and Archer, anyway....
Well, I can't imagine Shinji coming out of a scenario where Zouken is killed and Sakura saved without Rin or Rider beating the shit out of him....
as long as he's alive his ego problems would cause him to seek revenge.
Well, yes, true....
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Well, perhaps, but they have to fight at some point (the servants do, at least, even if the masters won't), or else they'll all disappear. Except perhaps Rider and Archer, anyway....
nothing says they disappear if they don't fight.
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Well, perhaps, but they have to fight at some point (the servants do, at least, even if the masters won't), or else they'll all disappear. Except perhaps Rider and Archer, anyway....
nothing says they disappear if they don't fight.
The Grail can only support servants for a couple of weeks or so, after that they will disappear unless their masters can sustain them. The Grail War can't simply last indefinitely.
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The Grail can only support servants for a couple of weeks or so, after that they will disappear unless their masters can sustain them. The Grail War can't simply last indefinitely.
that doesn't mean they need conflict outright
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The Grail can only support servants for a couple of weeks or so, after that they will disappear unless their masters can sustain them. The Grail War can't simply last indefinitely.
that doesn't mean they need conflict outright
No, but this is Caster we're talking about here. She's unlikely to trust that they'll find some undefined way to keep everyone alive, at least not so much that she won't want to be strong enough to kill them if necessary.
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No, but this is Caster we're talking about here. She's unlikely to trust that they'll find some undefined way to keep everyone alive, at least not so much that she won't want to be strong enough to kill them if necessary.
you have a point but i think you're disregarding any other character development within caster possible.
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No, but this is Caster we're talking about here. She's unlikely to trust that they'll find some undefined way to keep everyone alive, at least not so much that she won't want to be strong enough to kill them if necessary.
you have a point but i think you're disregarding any other character development within caster possible.
Well, yes, true.
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Ugh... sorry I'm late. I had real life difficulties getting back here.
Anyway, because I mostly skimmed the last page or so, what did I miss? Also, keep in mind that I have this set to show me fifty posts a page, so that's off for me.
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Master's
Shirou
Rin
Bazzet
Sakura
Ilya
Ayako
Shinji
Servants
Saber
Archer
Lancer
Rider
Berserker
Caster
Assassin (Mordred)
rule of thumb is smaller fights leading to a full battle against gilgamesh, shinji and mordred as a mid point for saber and shirou (have yet to decide what happens)
all the servants (aside from possibly mordred) are to battle gil and become allies.
no pairings yet. that's the short version.
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Thanks for the short version.
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logically for a repeated grail war type opening story we need three to four conflicts, with Gilgamesh being the last we need three others, any broad ideas on that?
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Well, I would imagine that Zouken would be one (probably the first one, in order to free up Sakura for other uses). Also Shinji/Mordred would make sense, and probably Ilya/Berserker.
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then we need to establish the order in which those conflicts happens
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then we need to establish the order in which those conflicts happens
Well, like I said, Zouken would have to be first, although he'd likely be supported by Shinji/Rider for at least a little bit. Shinji/Mordred obviously comes later. Ilya and Berserker would likely be intersperced like in canon, because you're not going to beat Ilya on the first try.
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so then you are suggesting
zouken, ilya, Shinji, ilya (final time) Mordred and then gilgamesh.
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so then you are suggesting
zouken, ilya, Shinji, ilya (final time) Mordred and then gilgamesh.
Not quite. Shinji would initially be with Rider, and would be fought prior to fighting Zouken. Then, after Zouken is defeated (or possibly even before), Ilya shows up, and is fought repeatedly throughout the story, before finally being defeated. Shinji and Mordred I'm not too sure about.
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I don't see shinji fighting a group coming to rescue sakura i see him fleeing and in keeping with sakura's character rider goes with shinji, later released after they defeat him.
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I don't see shinji fighting a group coming to rescue sakura i see him fleeing and in keeping with sakura's character rider goes with shinji, later released after they defeat him.
Once Zouken is dead, though, Sakura has little reason not to destroy the book, especially if Shinji is attacking Shirou.
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Once Zouken is dead, though, Sakura has little reason not to destroy the book, especially if Shinji is attacking Shirou.
you aren't putting yourself in her shoes, further than that Shinji wouldn't attack him outright. he's not stupid.
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Once Zouken is dead, though, Sakura has little reason not to destroy the book, especially if Shinji is attacking Shirou.
you aren't putting yourself in her shoes, further than that Shinji wouldn't attack him outright. he's not stupid.
Well, Shirou presumably knows she's a magus, so what does she have left to lose?
Also, presumably we don't want Rider to die, in order that Sakura can get to be involved, which makes defeating Shinji without him losing the book difficult.
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Well, Shirou presumably knows she's a magus, so what does she have left to lose?
sakura's personality would lead her not to take rider back, she still, I can't say pities shinji but it's complex and to answer how to take rider back later it's simple, archer, rb, rin.
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Well, Shirou presumably knows she's a magus, so what does she have left to lose?
sakura's personality would lead her not to take rider back, she still, I can't say pities shinji but it's complex and to answer how to take rider back later it's simple, archer, rb, rin.
What?
Why would they need Rule Breaker for that? Plus, that would give Rider to Rin, not to Sakura.
If Rider is a danger to Shirou, all she has to do is ask Sakura, and she'll destroy the book.
And, yes, she would pity Shinji, but she wouldn't be willing to let him hurt people.
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Why would they need Rule Breaker for that?
I imagine because archer would want to smack shinji in the mouth personally.
If Rider is a danger to Shirou, all she has to do is ask Sakura, and she'll destroy the book.
i doubt they'd bring sakura to the battle field
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Why would they need Rule Breaker for that?
I imagine because archer would want to smack shinji in the mouth personally.
What?
If Rider is a danger to Shirou, all she has to do is ask Sakura, and she'll destroy the book.
i doubt they'd bring sakura to the battle field
No, but if they know she's a magus, then they're likely to be more open with her about what they're facing.
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No, but if they know she's a magus, then they're likely to be more open with her about what they're facing.
i doubt she'd destroy the book at that point.
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No, but if they know she's a magus, then they're likely to be more open with her about what they're facing.
i doubt she'd destroy the book at that point.
If Shirou was going to risk his life fighting Rider, and was aware of her nature as a magus?
Why wouldn't she...?
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i don't see shirou getting the chance.
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i don't see shirou getting the chance.
What?
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character wise i see rin going off on her own without telling anyone.
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character wise i see rin going off on her own without telling anyone.
Hmm, yeah, possibly.
Even so, I don't think it should end with Rule Breaker being used on Rider, because that would cut her contract with Sakura. And, since Sakura has no real desire to fight, it's not clear she'd re-make it....
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why is that a problem?
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why is that a problem?
Because it implies that Sakura has little involvement in the story. And, it also kills off Rider....
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no to both of those, it unbinds rider, doesn't kill her. and sakura can still be involved even if she doesn't have rider as a servant.
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no to both of those, it unbinds rider, doesn't kill her.
It unbinds Rider and then she dies not long after due to a lack of prana (or because Shirou kills her in order to stop her feeding for prana). Rider would have nothing to live for anyway in that scenario.
and sakura can still be involved even if she doesn't have rider as a servant.
In what way? She can't fight, and Shirou and Rin would both try very hard to ensure she was as uninvolved as possible.
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It unbinds Rider and then she dies not long after due to a lack of prana (or because Shirou kills her in order to stop her feeding for prana). Rider would have nothing to live for anyway in that scenario.
rather bleak
In what way? She can't fight, and Shirou and Rin would both try very hard to ensure she was as uninvolved as possible.
that could be a story thing.
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It unbinds Rider and then she dies not long after due to a lack of prana (or because Shirou kills her in order to stop her feeding for prana). Rider would have nothing to live for anyway in that scenario.
rather bleak
It's true.
Rider has no master, no desire to serve anyone but Sakura and no real reason to want to live.
In what way? She can't fight, and Shirou and Rin would both try very hard to ensure she was as uninvolved as possible.
that could be a story thing.
Well, perhaps, but I am not sure how you would involve her in any significant fashion.
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Rider has no master, no desire to serve anyone but Sakura and no real reason to want to live.
I doubt the latter.
Well, perhaps, but I am not sure how you would involve her in any significant fashion.
given that it's a set up she doesn't have to be ridiculously useful, hell the masters usually aren't.
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Rider has no master, no desire to serve anyone but Sakura and no real reason to want to live.
I doubt the latter.
Canonically she doesn't really, and she certainly wouldn't want to live if it meant harming Sakura.
I think it's much better for Sakura to regain control of her.
Well, perhaps, but I am not sure how you would involve her in any significant fashion.
given that it's a set up she doesn't have to be ridiculously useful, hell the masters usually aren't.
I'd like her to have an actually decent role in the story, like Rin and Shirou do.
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Canonically she doesn't really, and she certainly wouldn't want to live if it meant harming Sakura.
I think it's much better for Sakura to regain control of her.
i don't see how getting another master would hurt sakura.
I'd like her to have an actually decent role in the story, like Rin and Shirou do.
there's the same type of role and there's a decent role, the two aren't always or often the same thing.
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Canonically she doesn't really, and she certainly wouldn't want to live if it meant harming Sakura.
I think it's much better for Sakura to regain control of her.
i don't see how getting another master would hurt sakura.
Well, Sakura is still a master, for one thing, and thus a potential danger to any new master. Also, killing Rin and Shirou would harm her. Even if Rider is willing to do that to protect Sakura's life, I don't think she would do so for her own benefit.
I'd like her to have an actually decent role in the story, like Rin and Shirou do.
there's the same type of role and there's a decent role, the two aren't always or often the same thing.
Perhaps, but in a Grail War the masters are always going to take centre stage.
I really think removing Rider from Sakura's control is a bad idea.
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and thus a potential danger to any new master. Also, killing Rin and Shirou would harm her.
ok stop with the worst situation assumptions please. there are no masters who would hurt sakura, nor would she kill either of those characters i don't even understand that logic.
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and thus a potential danger to any new master. Also, killing Rin and Shirou would harm her.
ok stop with the worst situation assumptions please. there are no masters who would hurt sakura, nor would she kill either of those characters i don't even understand that logic.
There are no new masters full stop, and both Shirou and Rin are enemy masters.
Anyway, I would much rather Sakura retain Rider, so she can actually have more involvement in the story. Not being a master automatically excludes her from a large part of it.
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You brought up new masters not me. I'm sorta thinking about Rider here she is always attached at the hip to Sakura as for having no involvement with out a servant is nasu not us, plus in hf they didn't have servants if you recall
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You brought up new masters not me. I'm sorta thinking about Rider here she is always attached at the hip to Sakura as for having no involvement with out a servant is nasu not us, plus in hf they didn't have servants if you recall
What is so wrong about Rider caring about her master?
And, yes, in HF they didn't have servants, but then HF was a much less action-based story. Everyone else having a servant and Sakura not having one is just going to mean Sakura gets left at home, because Shirou and Rin will not let her risk herself.
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Why can't that be a character building moment ?
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Why can't that be a character building moment ?
What?
My point is that Sakura will have no role in the story, certainly not any natural role. The only way she'll get involved is if we force her in where she doesn't really fit. You have yet to give any explanation whatsoever of what, exactly, she's going to do without a servant.
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just what I said, why can't their over protectiveness lead to a character moment where sakura proves them wrong?
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just what I said, why can't their over protectiveness lead to a character moment where sakura proves them wrong?
Like I said, the problem is how. A solo master in a Grail War cannot do much, and Sakura isn't even all that powerful without AM, due to the lack of training.
Also, like I said, I prefer her to be paired with Rider, it seems rather cruel on Rider otherwise, plus I don't see what role she could play in the story.
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that's to be figured out but we can come up with something. i don't know why you keep talking about cruelty to rider.
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that's to be figured out but we can come up with something.
Perhaps, but I think Sakura is better off retaining Rider.
i don't know why you keep talking about cruelty to rider.
Well, I like Rider, and I also think she works best when paired with Sakura, who she cares about and wants to fight for.
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fine, but i swear to god if rider doesn't get away from sakura on a personal level i'm flip my shit.
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fine, but i swear to god if rider doesn't get away from sakura on a personal level i'm flip my shit.
What do you mean?
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rider gets ignored any time sakura isn't, she is made to be a non entity. i do not want that to happen this time.
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rider gets ignored any time sakura isn't, she is made to be a non entity. i do not want that to happen this time.
What do you mean?
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exactly what i said
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exactly what i said
What you said doesn't make sense....
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it makes perfect sense, rider gets sidelined when sakura is in view, it always happens, just like rin in UBW.
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it makes perfect sense, rider gets sidelined when sakura is in view, it always happens, just like rin in UBW.
The thing is, without a servant, Sakura gets sidelined. Plus, her devotion to Sakura is a big part of Rider's character. Not to mention that we don't have anyone else to give Rider to that isn't just horribly stretching it and turning basically everyone into a magus.
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point of order: it's giving unconfirmed characters magic circuits, not making them magi, I do not want to sideline either character but something has to give here, rider likes sakura but she's hardly obsessed with her, she has things and thoughts beyond sakura.
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point of order: it's giving unconfirmed characters magic circuits, not making them magi
It's still stupid, at least if you do it to everyone. Plus, it requires Rider to actively seek out such a person, which there is no reason for her to do.
Doing it with one servant/master (Ayako and Caster) is within the realms of suspension of disbelief, but doing it with two is just stupid. There are not that many magi around, and even if there are Rider has to find one of them.
I do not want to sideline either character but something has to give here
Yes, but I do not like the idea you're suggesting, one bit. Not least because her protectiveness of Sakura is the thing I like the most about Rider.
Plus, like I said, with the way you're aiming to go we will end up side-lining them both.
rider likes sakura but she's hardly obsessed with her, she has things and thoughts beyond sakura.
Erm, I think you're seriously underestimating how much she cares for Sakura. Sure, she does have a life aside from just "protect Sakura", but it's clear that she is extremely devoted to Sakura, and would do anything to protect her.
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I can see any number of reasons why she could find to live on they are not childhood friends I want rider to have a good role instead )of a side car to Sakura
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I can see any number of reasons why she could find to live on
Perhaps, but you're reaching.
they are not childhood friends
No, but Rider cares extremely deeply for Sakura. She openly admits she'd happily kill the entire town to protect her, and she is quite willing to sacrifice her own life, suffer being raped by Shinji and so on in order to protect Sakura.
I want rider to have a good role instead )of a side car to Sakura
And I want Sakura to have a good role. Plus, Rider has to be someone's servant, why is being Sakura's servant any different? What stops her from having a good role if she's Sakura's servant?
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Simply put she's just a shield for Sakura it's hard to get her out from that
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Simply put she's just a shield for Sakura it's hard to get her out from that
But you could just as easily say Saber is "just a shield for Shirou" or that Archer is "just a shield for Rin". That is what a servant does.
There is a serious problem here, though, because our goals for this story seem to be difficult to reconcile. I don't like your general approach to Rider (I've discussed it with you before), and I don't like the way that you're setting it up so Sakura will end up without any role unless we really force it. It's not a matter of her strength or anything, she simply has no way to fight without a servant, because that's how Grail Wars work. If we try to give her a good and significant role despite that, it'll just look forced.
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But you could just as easily say Saber is "just a shield for Shirou" or that Archer is "just a shield for Rin". That is what a servant does.
often to their detriment but no more so then Rider.
given that the grail war is the set up to "open world" publishing I think it's less important to have a major role here then to setup better roles for later.
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But you could just as easily say Saber is "just a shield for Shirou" or that Archer is "just a shield for Rin". That is what a servant does.
often to their detriment but no more so then Rider.
What?
given that the grail war is the set up to "open world" publishing I think it's less important to have a major role here then to setup better roles for later.
Perhaps, but I don't think removing Rider from Sakura's control does that. If anything, I'd say you're getting it in reverse. Linking Rider to Sakura might limit her in this story, but it allows her to grow in future stories. If you don't have her as Sakura's servant, I can't see how she can realistically even survive the war.
And, I would like Sakura to have a major role here. Not to mention that giving her a servant etc. will aid in setting up a better role for her later on, as opposed to her not being given a chance to prove herself in any way.
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how much character development do the servant get? very little, see ubw and all of rider in canon.
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how much character development do the servant get? very little, see ubw and all of rider in canon.
Yeah, but Rider isn't going to stop being a servant just because she's paired up with someone else. Further, not being connected to one of the main characters means she's going to get even less.
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no, obviously not but it won't be as bad as being hip connected but i doubt not being connect to a main character (more so faulty because rider IS one) will get her less development.
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no, obviously not but it won't be as bad as being hip connected
I don't agree, at least with Sakura she has a master who she has a reason to fight for.
i doubt not being connect to a main character (more so faulty because rider IS one) will get her less development.
It will, because she will just be an enemy to Shirou etc., and nothing more.
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please stop the enemy crap, we moved pasted that awhile ago.
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please stop the enemy crap, we moved pasted that awhile ago.
Well, she would be.
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we already established the masters move to fight gil so no she wouldn't
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we already established the masters move to fight gil so no she wouldn't
She couldn't care less about Gil.
But, anyway, this is a pointless argument, because you've still not answered my objections to the basic idea. I do not like the idea of not giving Sakura a servant and nor do I like the idea of seperating Rider from Sakura. And nor, for that matter, do I think I could write it, because my idea of Rider is a lot more Sakura-centric than yours apparently is.
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well how do you suggest we deal with this?
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well how do you suggest we deal with this?
I'm not sure, really. We need to find a solution we're both OK with, but I do not like the idea of taking Rider off Sakura permanently at all.
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I never said permanently
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I never said permanently
Well, I mean for most or all of the War. I don't mind Rider not being with Sakura for a bit, but I'd like Sakura to regain a servant.
Also, I have serious practical issues with the idea, because I think it would ridiculous to drag in another random classmate of Shirou's and "reveal" that they're a magus, after we've already done it to Ayako.
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stop the magus thing, having magic circuits is seriously different. sides issei has a lot of credibility to be one.
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stop the magus thing, having magic circuits is seriously different. sides issei has a lot of credibility to be one.
Well, OK, being a magus isn't the same thing as having magic circuits, but it is still true that most people don't have them. Further, even if one of them does, they still have to come across Rider somehow. In my opinion, it's just too contrived, especially when we're already doing the exact same thing with Ayako.
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seems like any solution here is contrived or ooc
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seems like any solution here is contrived or ooc
You've not yet tried to find any solution to my fundamental objections. All you're even attempting to address here are the practical issues with it. And, frankly, having two seperate servants come across non-magi with magic circuits in the same school who are willing to help them out despite the potential risk to their own life is contrived. Having it happen once is OK, but doing it twice is just getting silly, and it's also rather repetitive.
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it just proves they are good people, goodness is not contrived, (except ppl like shinji)
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it just proves they are good people, goodness is not contrived, (except ppl like shinji)
There's a difference between being "good" and being willing to risk your life to protect someone you don't know. And, plus, even if they are willing, Rider still has to find them. Sure, she can get people to help her, but the likelihood of said person having magic circuits is low.
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perhaps, still do you have a way to give rider development outside of sakura?
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perhaps, still do you have a way to give rider development outside of sakura?
Not really, at least during the Grail War, but I don't think what you are suggesting really will either. She and Sakura will both just end up getting largely ignored. And, as I've already said, I like her devotion to Sakura, I don't want to cut that aspect out.
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well then we have a serious problem because i see her being sakura obsessed on this path which yeah I see as bad because of the trap she's stuck in as a result.
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well then we have a serious problem because i see her being sakura obsessed on this path which yeah I see as bad because of the trap she's stuck in as a result.
I don't see her being "Sakura-obsessed" as bad, I see it as a fundamental and important part of her character.
So, yeah, we do have a serious problem here....
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the word obsessed is a key warning some thing is wrong. concerned is fine, obsession is not
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the word obsessed is a key warning some thing is wrong. concerned is fine, obsession is not
Well, I'm not sure that you could actually call Rider "obsessed" with Sakura. It's not like she spends every waking moment thinking about her, or is incapable of having feelings that don't relate to her. She just cares very deeply for her, and is willing to do whatever it takes to protect her.
I'd say Rider is more like a very protective big sister, really. She cares a lot for Sakura and will do whatever she must to protect her, but she's not "obsessed" in the sense you claim. In particular, in HA she doesn't just follow Sakura around all the time or anything, she does have her own interests.
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i won't be writing her as such, point is we need something for rider beyond sakura, we have something for saber and archer already.
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i won't be writing her as such, point is we need something for rider beyond sakura, we have something for saber and archer already.
Well, perhaps, but splitting her off from Sakura won't achieve that. She won't magically forget all about her....
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still it's more then you have at the moment. i'm honestly up for better ideas but unless you throw more out here i got none
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still it's more then you have at the moment. i'm honestly up for better ideas but unless you throw more out here i got none
The problem is that your idea doesn't work either. I actually do not think it is at all better than what I've got, not least because it heavily limits Sakura's involvement in the story.
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only as you see it, i see it as vastly different.
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Perhaps, but I really do not like your idea, at least as you're selling it right now. I do not like the idea of Rider having little connection to Sakura, and I don't like the idea of Sakura not being a master.
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i think the master servant think is a relationship crutch, I mean seriously it makes their relationship less textbook, still like i said fine, give her rider back, it'll be kinda dull imo but whatever.
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i think the master servant think is a relationship crutch, I mean seriously it makes their relationship less textbook, still like i said fine, give her rider back, it'll be kinda dull imo but whatever.
I understand that, the problem is that it's a Grail War, if you don't have a servant you cannot do very much.
If you can find a satisfactory solution to that that also addresses my other issues (specifically, Rider's feelings for Sakura not just being ignored or eliminated, as well as the practical issues with finding someone else as a master that isn't going to just look contrived), I would be OK with it, but right now you're not coming up with any useful suggestions.
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like i said whatever, lets move on
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like i said whatever, lets move on
Yeah, OK.
I guess we can resolve this later, when we have a clearer idea of the plot.
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what do you want do deal with next?
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Not sure, really. What is there to do?
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mini plots, we know the general plot line, now we need to establish the points that link them.
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mini plots, we know the general plot line, now we need to establish the points that link them.
We do? I didn't think we had a general plot line yet....
And, presumably, the first thing to work out is the arc based around Sakura, since that will come first.
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we had a general plot zouken dies, shinji fight etcetra
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Hmm, do you think you could make a post somewhere where you put the stuff we've already decided, so we don't have to keep going back through the whole thread to find it?
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sure i'll gather up what we have and post it in a special thread
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sure i'll gather up what we have and post it in a special thread
OK, if you could get that done it'll make it a lot easier for me to work out where we are....
Like I said, though, the first thing to work out is probably the Sakura aspect of the plot, how she's rescued etc.
And, hmm, I have had a thought about Rider. What if Rin takes the book from Shinji? I think that's more plausible than her using Rule Breaker on Rider, and it would give her control of Rider in a way that Sakura can actually reverse if she desires to (by simply destroying the book). But, she might not want to initially, because that would mean revealing she's a master to Shirou, and potentially having to fight him.
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That works I guess but it does leave rider vulnerable to kirei
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That works I guess but it does leave rider vulnerable to kirei
What do you mean?
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Kirei is an unassuming as a character, he could take the book from Rin easily
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Kirei is an unassuming as a character, he could take the book from Rin easily
And Sakura could destroy it any time she likes. She's OK with Rider remaining with Rin, but if she's with someone who is a real threat then Sakura would just remove her from his control.
Also, Rin isn't an idiot. She knows Kotomine can't be trusted, there's no way she'd hand a servant over to him.
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Fate disproves your theory quite readily
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Fate disproves your theory quite readily
There's a difference between getting stabbed in the chest and giving him a book that allows her to control a servant....
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i never said give, you inferred that, it's kirei, he'd black jack her and take it.
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i never said give, you inferred that, it's kirei, he'd black jack her and take it.
Well, that requires him to get within striking distance of a girl who has two servants, one of whom is well aware of his true nature. Even if she was willing to trust him enough to allow it to happen (which I don't think she is), Archer sure as hell wouldn't be.
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assuming they'll be with her 24/7
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assuming they'll be with her 24/7
That's kind-of how servants work....
Rin is not stupid enough to leave herself undefended in a Grail War. Aside from Kotomine, any master or servant could just walk up to her and attack.
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think about the situation there
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think about the situation there
What?
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she has how many allies? seriously I doubt she'll be guard up the whole time
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she has how many allies? seriously I doubt she'll be guard up the whole time
No, but Archer would be, at least where Kotomine is concerned.
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perhaps but that also implies the resolution of archer's issue prior to saving sakura which is unlikely
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perhaps but that also implies the resolution of archer's issue prior to saving sakura which is unlikely
Not really. Archer still looks out for Rin and wants to protect her, even in UBW. It's only at the end when he completely snaps that he abandons that, and even then he threatens Gil in order to buy her some time. He might still desire to kill Shirou, but that won't be at the expense of Rin's life. Plus, if anything he'd want her to retain Rider, as an insurance policy in case he is forced to break his contract with her. After all, in UBW he did try to set Rin up with Saber....
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see having rider means he can go out of his way to break said contract
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see having rider means he can go out of his way to break said contract
Yes, perhaps, but not in a way that would harm Rin. He can't be sure Rider will remain loyal to her, for one thing, and he certainly wouldn't trust Kotomine.
Also, to some extent that can be a plot point. Have at least some aspect of Archer breaking his contract with Rin, and then have Kotomine try to take Rider, only for Sakura to take her back at the opportune moment.
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interesting idea although in order to make it useful it needs to have kirei use rider effectively before then.
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interesting idea although in order to make it useful it needs to have kirei use rider effectively before then.
Well, yeah, which is tricky since Sakura is hardly going to let him use Rider to harm Shirou.
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have sakura asleep or knocked out
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have sakura asleep or knocked out
Well, it's possible, although we have to work out how that would happen, particularly if she found out that Rin had obtained and then lost the book....
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gil steals ilya and knocks her out and at the same time rin gets jumped by kirei
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gil steals ilya and knocks her out and at the same time rin gets jumped by kirei
Well, that could work. It does sound like it would be rather late in the story, though, and I'd like Sakura to get involved a bit earlier than that, ideally.
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after berserker is dead is really the mid point
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after berserker is dead is really the mid point
Well, what you're suggesting is basically the end of the Fate route, only with Sakura replacing Rin. Ilya getting stolen means they need to get her back now (before Gil kills her), and that means they have to defeat Gil there and then. Although, I guess having Rider suddenly turn on them could change that, particularly if Sakura is smart about it....
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what i'm suggesting is a clutch moment in a big fight like that and yes Sakura won't be involved much in the violence but that doesn't mean zero involvement, I think it fits her character and is believable character development.
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what i'm suggesting is a clutch moment in a big fight like that and yes Sakura won't be involved much in the violence but that doesn't mean zero involvement, I think it fits her character and is believable character development.
Well, it's a big involvement in the final fight, yes, but it means she has little involvement in the rest of the story. It is also difficult for Kotomine to hold onto Rider for any length of time without Sakura taking her back.
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in the violence of the rest of the story but she's not saber or archer, sakura 's not built for fighting like that.
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in the violence of the rest of the story but she's not saber or archer, sakura 's not built for fighting like that.
Well, no, of course she's not a direct fighter (although she isn't completely incapable of it), but that doesn't mean she can't help with planning etc. Without a servant, my suspicion is that Rin and Shirou would keep her as far out of the way as possible, to ensure she wouldn't be a target and to keep the war secret from her.
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I doubt they would succeed in keeping it a secret from her and i imagine archer giving rin a smack if she tried.
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I doubt they would succeed in keeping it a secret from her and i imagine archer giving rin a smack if she tried.
Well, obviously they won't succeed, because she already knows about it. But, at the same time, she doesn't want them to know she knows about it (because it would imply she was a master), and they don't want her to know. So, the charade is likely to continue reasonably well, I suspect.
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I suspect different with Rider's disposition
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I suspect different with Rider's disposition
What?
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i would expect her to spill everything she knows once freed from shinji.
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i would expect her to spill everything she knows once freed from shinji.
Really? I can't see her wanting to give up Sakura's secret if Sakura herself does not wish to.
Also, if she told them that Sakura was a master, then Sakura has little reason not to regain control of Rider. She has nothing to hide any more, so why not get involved directly?
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rider may have told rin but that doesn't mean sakura knows that.
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rider may have told rin but that doesn't mean sakura knows that.
No, but that then means that Sakura still gets excluded from everything, only she doesn't know that they know the truth.
Also, like I said, I don't think Rider would do that. She's too loyal to Sakura, and wouldn't want to risk revealing her true master to a potential enemy in case that said enemy went after her.
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again i see archer changing that.
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again i see archer changing that.
Changing what?
And, I do think it's better that Sakura's role remain secret until it's revealed to them at the end. It has more dramatic potential that way.
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ok then.
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ok then.
Yeah, I would like her to have a role in the story prior to the end, though. That's why I'm a bit unsure about how late you're leaving it.
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well it's the fact that the story is what we make it, i'm not terribly interested in the grail war, it's just a common clear staring point.
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well it's the fact that the story is what we make it, i'm not terribly interested in the grail war, it's just a common clear staring point.
Well, perhaps, but I would like Sakura's role to be reasonable in the story, and the Grail War is going to cover a large part of that story, if not all of it.
In particular, I'm not sure what would come after it, at least in terms of the main story itself.
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the grail war would be the opening fic as basis for the open world story writing.
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the grail war would be the opening fic as basis for the open world story writing.
Well, yeah, but if that's the only directly collaborative one I would like Sakura to play a decent role in it.
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for the time being yes it would be. define decent please.
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for the time being yes it would be. define decent please.
Well, similar to Rin, Shirou etc., and not just as background scenary or someone who needs rescuing....
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shirou is a moron whose neuroses force him to fight, Rin is similar if less stupid.
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shirou is a moron whose neuroses force him to fight, Rin is similar if less stupid.
Yes, sure, the point is that I want Sakura to have a similar level of involvement in the story to them, or at least to not be far behind.
The reason I wanted her to retain Rider initially was because I couldn't see any other way for that to happen. The idea of Kotomine stealing Rider would work, but it seems to come at the expense of Sakura having any involvement whatsoever (aside from as someone to be protected) for the vast bulk of the story.
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she can but i'm not sure why it has to be combat as involvement.
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she can but i'm not sure why it has to be combat as involvement.
I'm not asking for her to fight directly, but she does need to be involved in the war in some manner, because there really isn't anything else going on at that point.
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indirect involvement is very possible, manly on the character building side of things.
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indirect involvement is very possible, manly on the character building side of things.
Well, possibly, but that is likely to mean she is shunted out of large parts of it (that being anything to do with the war, or even discussions of the war).
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you are being entirely negative.
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you are being entirely negative.
Well, that's just how it seems to me.
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The war is fairly small all things considered
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The war is fairly small all things considered
It's the primary aspect of the fic, though. Aside from the war, what else is happening that Sakura can be involved in? Plus, the war is a large part of everything else that is going on....
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The characters are the bigger picture and Sakura has plenty of reason to be involved in that way
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The characters are the bigger picture and Sakura has plenty of reason to be involved in that way
Well, yes, that is true, but her involvement is stunted by not being "in" on the nature of the Grail War or the servants. Even if, in reality, she does know about it, they won't know that, and even if they did she wouldn't know they know.
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You're fighting pretty hard for this, I think either or works
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You're fighting pretty hard for this, I think either or works
Well, I want Sakura to have a very good role in the story.
and, what do you mean, "either or"? Either what or what...?
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Giving her fighting role or giving her a character building role
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Giving her fighting role or giving her a character building role
The thing is, I don't see how to give her a character-building role without her being involved in the Grail War stuff somewhat. They would naturally tend to try to keep her as far away as possible for the duration of the war, for her own safety. I would also like her to have at least some fighting role, even if it is only at the very end.
Plus, that in itself implies she's not one of the main characters, because she is mainly there to build the characters of the actual main characters. At least, that's how it comes across to me....
At very least, I don't think the battle where Ilya is kidnapped should be the final battle. Mainly because it would either be too easy for them to win (by Rider backstabbing Gil at the opportune moment), or else Sakura's involvement would be very limited. I think that it would be the penultimate battle, with Shirou, Rin etc. about to lose horribly when Rider suddenly turns on Gil, allowing them to rescue Ilya, but they haven't yet managed to work out a plan for actually defeating Gil. Then, they return home and plan out the final battle, with Sakura's assistance and with her (and Rider) playing at least some role in it.
I also think Sakura should have been training to use her magic. Even though Shirou and Rin don't want to involve her in the war, they would still want her to be able to defend herself if she gets dragged in anyway. So, they'd encourage her to learn and would assist her in doing so.
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Okay first fighting does not make her a main character nor does giving her a character building role mean she's a fluffer for the other characters. Rider can't beat Gilgamesh with just a sneak attack nor would he let them go further Saber wouldn't just retreat given the opportunity to strike. Training to use her magic is a character building role.
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Okay first fighting does not make her a main character nor does giving her a character building role mean she's a fluffer for the other characters.
Well, I know the first is true, but the second did sound true from what you said.
Rider can't beat Gilgamesh with just a sneak attack nor would he let them go further Saber wouldn't just retreat given the opportunity to strike.
Well, of course not, but that doesn't mean they'd be able to beat him, particularly not if they don't know of Avalon yet, and they've not planned for how to involve Rider. Also, Gil lets them go multiple times in canon....
Training to use her magic is a character building role.
Well, yeah, sure, but I'd like her to have a chance to actually use it, and to be involved in the planning etc. of the final battle.
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It's illogical for them to lose and Gilgamesh would not let Archer go
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It's illogical for them to lose and Gilgamesh would not let Archer go
How is it illogical for them to lose? Gil is not easy to defeat.
And, like I said, I want Sakura to actually matter here, which seems unlikely if the battle ends there and then. Rider isn't going to be able to do very much without the time to plan anything out.
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Between saber archer lancer caster and rider with a sneak attack if Gil won there would be no way to beat him the next time
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Between saber archer lancer caster and rider with a sneak attack if Gil won there would be no way to beat him the next time
Well, like I said, it depends on planning.
All I'm trying to do is work out a way to make it so that Sakura and Rider can play a decent role. Particularly Sakura....
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Gil is an egotist but it has limits dude and believably letting archer go or not using full power in the second fight is beyond them
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Gil is an egotist but it has limits dude and believably letting archer go or not using full power in the second fight is beyond them
Well, OK, then we need to work something out here, because I would like Sakura to actually get to use her new-found abilities at some point....
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She has a number of possible disciplines of magic available so you need to determine what her abilities are
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She has a number of possible disciplines of magic available so you need to determine what her abilities are
Well, the same as they are in canon, presumably....
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ER no, see Sakura has a wealth of potential so it would be limited to our imagination
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ER no, see Sakura has a wealth of potential so it would be limited to our imagination
Well, she has a wealth of potential, but she does only have a few weeks to develop it. Training isn't something which happens instantly....
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I mean that it doesn't have to be the usual stuff like healing of puppetry if we don't want
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I mean that it doesn't have to be the usual stuff like healing of puppetry if we don't want
Well, I don't recall Sakura ever being particularly good at healing, her magic doesn't allow for it. And, like I said, the main limitation is time. She only has a few days to train, she's not going to become the best magus ever.
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Water is a healing aspect that aside no not the best but decently useful
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Water is a healing aspect that aside no not the best but decently useful
Water might be a healing aspect, but the Matou magic is explicitly not good at healing, due to the nature of it.
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Yes but starting at the beginning she could work with the affinity to make it good
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Yes but starting at the beginning she could work with the affinity to make it good
Hmm, I remember her saying in HF that the Matou magic could only be used to cause harm, not to heal.
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Yeah at that point sure but she doesn't have to use just matou methods
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Yeah at that point sure but she doesn't have to use just matou methods
Well, she's somewhat limited by what they've done to her body, although it's not 100% clear how much capability she retains for using Tohsaka magecraft.
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Doesn't have to be tohsaka magecraft
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Doesn't have to be tohsaka magecraft
Well, she's somewhat limited by her magical affinity. Nasuverser magecraft isn't a case of "you can do anything", each magus has certain things they're good at (including Rin), and certain things they just can't do.
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Yes but she can use her affinity to learn other water magic then the matous type
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Yes but she can use her affinity to learn other water magic then the matous type
Well, remember that Water isn't her real affinity. The only reason she has that affinity at all is because of the Matou magic that was forced on her. So, I'm not sure that would really apply.
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Her real affinity being?
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Her real affinity being?
Imaginary Numbers. Hence all the shadow stuff.
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I want to smack nasu, nonsense words do not equal a sorcery type
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I want to smack nasu, nonsense words do not equal a sorcery type
Well, imaginary numbers are actually a real mathematical concept, so it's not quite "nonsense words" although, yeah, it's rather an odd affinity. It does have actual properties, though. I think the main property is that it's good for spirit-related stuff....
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So then she would be the healer, just not for the masters
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So then she would be the healer, just not for the masters
Like I said, her magic isn't particularly suited to healing. Also, servants don't really need healing, usually, and that would also require them to involve her in the story at an earlier point.
She's probably better at hurting servants than she would be at healing them, honestly. Her magic is pretty good at that, although it's obviously restricted by the fact that she's up against a Heroic Spirit....
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Ok I'm stumped
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Ok I'm stumped
What do you mean?
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I have no clue how to proceed
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I have no clue how to proceed
Proceed with what in particular?
As far as Sakura is concerned, I think we're maybe trying to work too much out right now. Perhaps we need to let some more of the story fall into place first. Do you have the post which shows what we've already worked out that I asked you to do a few days ago? That would be very helpful....
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Not on my phone
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Not on my phone
Ah, OK.
It would be very handy if you could get it posted ASAP, because it's hard to recall what we've already got and what we need to work on.
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Tomorrow
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Tomorrow
OK, fair enough.
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can't find it, not a big deal I can just run the thread and collect the confirmed info in another thread
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can't find it, not a big deal I can just run the thread and collect the confirmed info in another thread
OK, sure, that makes sense.
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On my phone again so that is out, anyway we had a basic plot. Grail war starts, Sakura get saved zouken murdered, fights between masters fights with Shinji, berserker and a huge fight with Gil at the end
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Yeah, OK.
What do we need to work on next, then?
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Discuss character point, what we what for each character individually
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Hmm, well, it probably makes sense to start with Sakura, since I'm around. Unless you have a better idea, anyway.
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Alright, keep in mind this is for the single character, what do you want for Sakura in particular, not pairings
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Well, OK, ignoring the pairing issue, I'd say that the main thing I want is for her to be free from Zouken, happy with her life at the end, get character development and at least some chance to be awesome.
Are you asking for more specific than that? If so, what sort of things do you mean?
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What do you want as the pinnacle of her character development here, in my case for shirou I'd like something akin to ubw
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Hmm, OK, well, what I'd like is for her to be able to contribute usefully to the final battle (and possibly prior to that), and to be generally awesome in doing so. I don't expect her to be uber-powerful, she's only going to have a couple of weeks to learn to fight, but she is a smart girl, and her magical affinity is anti-spirit, so I'm sure she can think up something that will at least assist her side (along with being Rider's master, of course, at least at the end).
I would imagine she'd develop over the course of the route from not wanting to fight and not wanting her sister and Shirou to know that she's involved to being determined to protect them in any way she can, regardless of her fear that they will reject her if they learn she was secretly Rider's master all along.
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Logically she'd be a sniper then.
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Well, that does make sense, although I'm not sure what she's going to snipe....
Also, if we go with our original intention, she'd show up to reclaim Rider at just the right time, which I'm not sure fits with being a sniper. So, we have to consider how best to fit that in.
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Snipers' are all about timing. And I assume an antispirit attack using archery as a focus
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Well, yeah, that definitely makes sense. I doubt she's going to defeat Gil single-handed, though, so we do need to consider what the effect will be.
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Blow his arm off
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Blow his arm off
Hmm, yeah, that figures, and it could explain why he can't kill everyone with Ea....
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Best contribution I can think of
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Best contribution I can think of
Well, yeah, it definitely does make sense. Although she's not going to just vanish after doing that....
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honestly i don't see the fight lasting long enough after that for it to matter.
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honestly i don't see the fight lasting long enough after that for it to matter.
Well, yeah, that is probably true. We need to consider exactly how it will go, though, although that's probably for later.
The main thing is that, when she regains Rider, she has to do so without giving her position away.
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I assume the book just burns, no spell involved.
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I assume the book just burns, no spell involved.
Well, yeah, if she orders it it would burn. She does still need to communicate her intentions to Rider somewhat, though, although I guess it would be fairly obvious from the context....
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She does still need to communicate her intentions to Rider somewhat
far as i'm aware master and servants have telepathy
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She does still need to communicate her intentions to Rider somewhat
far as i'm aware master and servants have telepathy
True.
So, that seems to be Sakura's basic plot sorted out, although we'll definitely need to plan her development out more. What next?
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the objectives for the other characters.
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Hmm, OK.
Well, Rider's might make sense to work out, then. I don't know what you intend for her, but I certainly don't want her feelings for Sakura to disappear, although I definitely do want her to develop.
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Well rider is under Shinji and then kirei, not much to develop, no idea what you mean about her feelings disappearing.
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Well rider is under Shinji and then kirei, not much to develop
I thought she was under Rin for at least some proportion of the story. There's scope for development there, at least.
no idea what you mean about her feelings disappearing.
Well, her coming to care less about Sakura.
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True enough about rin but I can't see any character development that is relevant to rider herself
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True enough about rin but I can't see any character development that is relevant to rider herself
Hmm, OK.
Well, I can live with that, although I would actually like her to be more than just Sakura's protector....
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I want rider to be more than her protector more than you
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I want rider to be more than her protector more than you
Yeah, I know you do....
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Any way with rider settled let's move on to another character
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Hmm, well, OK, I guess Shirou or Rin makes sense next, not sure which. I'm going to say Rin.
For her, I would like development such that she becomes more in touch with her human side, and in particular for her to reconcile her feelings for Sakura and openly accept her as her little sister. Fighting-wise I'm not sure there is much to develop, at least at this stage. She's already pretty competent, and I don't think we should start throwing the Jewelled Sword in here.
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Humanizing Rin is okay to an extent but we can't go to far as for the next character let's discuss ilya
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Humanizing Rin is okay to an extent but we can't go to far
Well, what do you mean by "too far"?
as for the next character let's discuss ilya
Hmm, well, there I think you're probably better-placed than I am to start it off....
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You can't change her completely, as for. Ilya I'd like her to live obviously, I'd prefer she grew up physically but logically time is too short for that
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You can't change her completely
No, of course not, but you don't have to, because she is a fundamentally kind person.
as for. Ilya I'd like her to live obviously, I'd prefer she grew up physically but logically time is too short for that
Well, yeah, that makes sense. That is hardly much in the way of character development, though....
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Well her development in fate is good enough for me anyway
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Well her development in fate is good enough for me anyway
Hmm, OK.
Well, I'm not overly bothered and I'm not sure what sort of development beyond that she can get in this amount of time, so that's fine.
Shirou, then?
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yeah, sure, mainly i'd like shirou to get the ubw treatment here.
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yeah, sure, mainly i'd like shirou to get the ubw treatment here.
What do you mean by that?
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in terms of his skill set and personal development of his goals
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in terms of his skill set and personal development of his goals
What sort of "personal development" is that? You mean wanting to continue to save everyone but accepting it's not always possible?
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basically
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Well, that's fine by me. I do actually like Shirou's ideal, I just detest the corrupted form of it that MoS Shirou follows. Personally I think HF Shirou is closer to Shirou's true ideal than MoS Shirou is, because he does at least try to save everyone, even if he does put Sakura first.
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I have no opinion on that at this point.
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What?
-
it's not relevant so lets move on
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OK, fine. What next, then?
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Caster and ayako
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Hmm, yeah, that's definitely going to be an interesting dynamic, although I'm not entirely sure what we want from it.
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The dynamic isn't the issue. I'm addressing each individual characters what we want from them
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Well, yeah, but they're going to be closely linked in this case.
And, I was saying I'm not entirely sure what we do want from those two.
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Make ayako a capable fighter at least, caster needs to get some kind of arc to clear her anger issues
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Make ayako a capable fighter at least
Yeah, that figures.
It actually does make sense for her to be involved with Sakura somehow, too, helping her with her Archery magic.
caster needs to get some kind of arc to clear her anger issues
Yeah, definitely.
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I'm not sure how ayako can help with the magic part
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I'm not sure how ayako can help with the magic part
Well, she can't, but she can help with the Archery part, although admittedly Sakura can probably do that herself....
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Exactly so then leave those girls separate
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OK, fair enough, I was just trying to make some connections.
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Connection is fine but it's one note, as you said yourself Sakura doesn't need help
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Yeah, I guess. I was just thinking of some more possible interactions.
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It shouldn't be forced like that
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OK, fair enough.
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Now she could easily get along with saber because of their mutual interest
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Now she could easily get along with saber because of their mutual interest
Who could, and what mutual interest?
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Saber and Sakura, the interest being obviously protecting shirou
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Yeah, that figures, although Sakura needs to get past the whole "Saber's existence puts Shirou in danger" thing.
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She's a bit fucked up I'd say
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She's a bit fucked up I'd say
Well, the thing is, she's right. Being a Grail War master is a very dangerous role, and Shirou is hardly the sort of person to maximise his own chances of survival, either.
It is noticable, though, that if Sakura and Saber spend time together they do warm to each other somewhat (I can't remember if it's Fate or UBW where Sakura sleeps over for a night). Sakura would certainly appreciate Saber's protectiveness of Shirou, even if she doesn't appreciate the fact that Shirou is a master.
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She's wrong because shirou would get involved no matter what
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She's wrong because shirou would get involved no matter what
Not if he never even found out about the war....
But, yes, once Saber has been summoned he's not going to sit it out even if she dies. Even so, though, it is not really surprising that she isn't too fond of Saber initially, because her very existence is endangering Shirou.
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Um, lancer kinda stops the not knowing bit dead
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Um, lancer kinda stops the not knowing bit dead
Hmm, true.
Sakura doesn't actually know that, though.
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That means she's wrong just opinionated
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That means she's wrong just opinionated
Not really, she's right that Saber's existence does put Shirou in danger, she just isn't aware that, had she not been summoned, Shirou would have died.
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That is your opinion,
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That is your opinion,
Not really, it is just a statement of fact. Saber existing makes Shirou a target for the other masters. It's not her fault, but it is still true.
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Shirou is a target period. Saber actually makes him safer
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Shirou is a target period. Saber actually makes him safer
If he wasn't a master he wouldn't be, at least as far as Sakura can reasonably know.
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Then it is not a statement of fact , it is Sakura's opinion only
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Then it is not a statement of fact , it is Sakura's opinion only
Well, OK, whatever....
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Moving forward, there is Gil kirei Shinji and others left to discuss
-
Well, of those, which do you think it makes sense to discuss next?
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Honestly Gilgamesh
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Well, OK, but what do you want from him aside from an advanced state of deadness?
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I don't want him to die, there is no way around him dying
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Well, yes, OK, but the point remains the same. I'm not really sure what sort of character development we can give the guy that won't result in him winning the war trivially.
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You've completely lost me
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Well, you said we should discuss Gil, but I'm not sure what there is to discuss....
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Well they is how we'd like him portrayed
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Well, what do you mean?
-
as an idiot or unstoppable force, effectively how competent he is.
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as an idiot or unstoppable force, effectively how competent he is.
Well, most likely both, at different times. If you make him an "unstoppable force" from a beginning then he just wins, and there's no way to avoid that because he would just force an immediate confrontation before the good guys are ready. Conversely, if you make him an idiot throughout then it is too easy for the heroes once they're all allied. So, he has to start out like in canon, but he has to awaken to the threat everyone else poses in time for the final battle, which he needs to fight at least mostly seriously.
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Why are you thinking in absolutes?
-
Why are you thinking in absolutes?
What?
-
just what I said, you seem to think competent means unstoppable and idiot means useless.
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just what I said, you seem to think competent means unstoppable and idiot means useless.
When you're Gil, competent does mean unstoppable, at least if you're competent from the beginning. He's just too overpowered not to win if he starts off fighting fully seriously.
And, idiot doesn't mean useless, but it does mean you aren't going to beat an alliance of at least four different master/servant pairs all of whom have the capability to kill you if you underestimate them.
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It's a matter of perspective I just want to be sure it doesn't look bad when the fight happens
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Yeah, of course, but that's kind-of what I was saying, really. If Gil starts out as an "unstoppable force" then he would kill everyone on day 1. So, he has to start off pissing around and not really fighting, and only get serious later on.
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Alternatively he could be absent from the story until a sudden appearance meaning he doesn't have to faff about
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Alternatively he could be absent from the story until a sudden appearance meaning he doesn't have to faff about
Him being absent in itself is "faffing about", really. If he was being serious he'd deal with the threat immediately and not wait until it's too late....
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I think you're failing to see the dramatic reason in addition to the character reason
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I think you're failing to see the dramatic reason in addition to the character reason
Not really. Gil being careless is well-known in the fandom. I think it works better to have him develop over time into a serious threat than it does to have him suddenly drop in and be beaten first time around. Particularly since none of the heroes would even know who he was.
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I never said the first appearance would be the last I just think he should be completely absent until he is the villain
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I never said the first appearance would be the last I just think he should be completely absent until he is the villain
Well, yes, possibly. I guess there is little point in building him up when everyone already knows who he is....
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Well yeah plus his villainous state works better if it is sudden
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Well yeah plus his villainous state works better if it is sudden
What do you mean?
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Having him present from the start will just occupy space and lessen his impact
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Having him present from the start will just occupy space and lessen his impact
Yeah, that makes sense.
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With that in mind we should get on to plot summary
-
Yeah, OK.
I've forgotten most of what we've come up with before, though....