Dark Side of the Moon

Unlimited Creativity Works => Role Playing => Topic started by: Willy Vereb on August 15, 2013, 03:25:25 PM

Title: Mecha Heroes - Sign-Up and Concept Discussion Thread
Post by: Willy Vereb on August 15, 2013, 03:25:25 PM
Mecha Heroes


Mecha Heroes is a new roleplaying game idea, focusing on giant robots.
Join a team of quirky mecha operators to save the world!

Mecha Heroes draws lot of ideas from the setting of Super Robot Wars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Robot_Wars), so expect robots of various kind appearing in a flexible and malleable world where anything can happen.
The game is segmented into "Missions" where the plays usually need to fight but there are often other objectives.
It's to streamline the game and not meant to limit the roleplaying experience.
To ensure this, between each mission there's a "free interaction phase" when characters can talk and mingle in a less tense setting.


There are many more elements but for now let's focus on what's important.


First, I promised the character/mech creation guide.
Here's

(start with an image of your character's appearance, not obligatory but it generally helps to enhance your post)

Name: (your character's name)
Gender: (Male or Female)
Race: (you can ignore this if your character is human)
Age: (Your character's age in years)
Height: (Your character's height. You can express it in either feet/inch or centimeters format. I don't mind either.)
Weight: (Your character's weight. Either in kilograms or lbs)
Rank/Title: (Your character's status in the military or other special titles he/she might be known as)
Special: (anything else worth noting, be very brief and categorical)

(You can add a few more other information you want but generally these are the minimum.)

Appearance:
(You can describe how your character looks. Ignore this if the picture on the top was more than enough)

Bio:
(Write a short introduction about your character. Who is he/she? Where did he/she come from? How did he/she became a mech pilot? What he/she can do? How skilled he/she is? What are his/her motivations? Etcetera,etcetera...)

Personality: (Describe your character's personality. What he or she's like?)

(Following that we can get to the next part, creating a profile for your mech.)



(image for your giant robot goes here, not obligatory but helpful)


Name: (how's your mecha called? With model/serial numbers and everything)
Type: (What is it categorized as? Ie: Mobile Suit, Orbital Frame, etc. Is it a Real or Super Robo?)
Dimensions: (How big is your machine? If it's a humanoid robot then you only have to mention its height in meters)
Weight: (How heavy is your machine? Preferably expressed in metric tons)
(If you want you can include other stats like armor material, powerplant, propulsion systems and such. Whatever you find important enough to list here.)

Stats: (The 7 parameters showing the power of your machine.They range from 1 to 100 but the differences aren't linear. For further details, see below)


Description:
(Describe your machine, including its appearance, development and special features)

Weapons:
(What kind of weapons your machine possesses? If it has hidden weapons that you either want to keep secret or your character has yet to become aware of them, then they're an exception. We'll treat those kind of weapons as "upgrades" in the future.)

Abilities:
(What sort of special abilities your mecha has? It can be anything from a temporally speed boost to a whole transformation sequence that changes your machine completely. This includes exotic skills or abilities that your character has while piloting his/her mecha.)

Signature Moves:
(Mostly the property of Super Robots. What kind of character defining attack you have? It can be a flashy finishing move or a combination of various attacks. If your mecha has energy attacks that aren't connected to any weapons, they belong either here or to the "Abilities" section.)



...
Feeling confused a bit?
Don't know where to start?
Well, then I show you an example:
(http://www.gundam0083.net/character/images/g_05b.jpg)

Name: Average Joe
Gender: Male
Race: Human
Age: 37
Height: 5'7" (170 cm)
Weight: 190 lbs (86 kg)
Rank/Title: Private
Special: He's average

Appearance:
Average Joe is the ultimate example of average. He has average height, average looks and hair below the average ("Not Bald!"- Average Joe).

Bio:
Average Joe grew up in an average ultra-militaristic family. He had a dog with above average intelligence, Tony. The dog became a Mobile Suit pilot years before Joe could even graduate, starting a heated rivalry between the two. Average Joe was dreaming of becoming the average Mobile Suit pilot ("I wanna be a Mook!" - yelled he). But his average level of intellect proved to be "too high" to meet the military standards. Saddened but all-so-determined, Average Joe took up a hellish training to kill his brain cells. Through the years he watched hundreds of Soaps, went to talk shows and for 10 minutes he even became a minor celebrity in a Reality TV program. By the age of 35 the results were stupefying and the military welcomed Average Joe with open arms. He survived 6 battles and expectantly waits for the time he'll be promoted to Private First Class.

Personality:
Average Joe unsurprisingly has no personality. His devolved mind is honed to methodically follow any order. He has no private life and is cyrogenetically frozen between missions. Joe is unreasonably brave and prepared to sacrifice himself for the stupidest reasons. He also bears mysterious rivalry with ESF's new ace Tony, a genetically engineered Newtype Canine created to pilot the advanced GUNDOG suit.

(http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/08thmsteam/ms-06jc.jpg)


Name: MS-06F Zaku II, (nicknamed: "Garbage")
Type: Mobile Suit (Real Robo)
Dimensions: 17.5 meters
Weight: 737 tons
Armor: Super Steel Alloy
Powerplant: Minovsky-type Ultra-Compact Fusion Reactor (rated 1951 kW)
Propulsion: Rocket Thrusters&Verniers


Stats:
  • Strength: 10
  • Armor: 10
  • Firepower: 10
  • Performance: 10
  • Mobility: 10
  • Energy Output: 10
  • Sensors: 10

Description:
The Zaku II is an imposing nearly 18 meters tall robot. Its armor is several times more durable than M1A2 Abrams (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Abrams)'. Its primary weapon shoots 120mm APFSDS shells (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M829) on full auto and has the huge Zaku Bazooka for extra firepower. The Zaku II is outfitted with rockets and apogee motors, allowing it to freely maneuver in space. On Earth the same rockets can be used to perform multi-kilometer jumps through the air. Lastly the control system is a perfect meld between manual and computer-assisted movements, allowing the Zaku II to act and move almost like a human of its size would.
The Zaku II is a truly fearsome machine...or at least used to be many decades ago.
Nowadays, the Zaku II is little more than a joke, assigned to the lowest of mooks.
This fact makes Average Joe very proud of himself.

Weapons:
  • MMP-78 120mm Machinegun: Primary weapon of the Zaku II. It's a large machinegun fed by a 100-round drum magazine, shooting 120mm APFSDS shells.
  • H&L-SB25K/280mmA-P Zaku Bazooka: Powerful, large but slow-reloading weapon. Each missile must be manually inserted before firing. Has enough firepower to blow another Zaku II into pieces.
  • Heat Hawk Type 5: Tomahawk-like axe used in melee. When active the axe's blade is covered in orange plasma, increasing its cutting power. This is the Zaku II's most powerful weapon. Which doesn't say much.

Abilities:
  • Critical Failure: Due to its age and poor maintenance, the Zaku II has a high chance of suffering inexplicable reactor failure in combat, resulting in a small-scale nuclear explosion, enough to damage space colonies.

Signature Moves:
  • Trans-DUMB!: The Zaku II undergoes radical transformation that makes it appear glowing red. Following that the Zaku's reactor output and performance triples as Average Joe tries to ram straight into the enemy. On impact the Zaku II suffers a critical reactor failure resulting in a huge explosion that wipes Average Joe and hopefully even his enemy.

Title: Re: Mecha Heroes - Sign-Up and Concept Discussion Thread
Post by: Willy Vereb on August 15, 2013, 03:53:23 PM
Ok, to further elaborate.

Mecha stats only exist for your convenience.
It's an easy way to tell what can each other's machine do.
On request there would be also stats for the enemies you're fighting against. Sometimes even without it.

Another thing, like I said, these stats aren't linear.
If anything they follow a weird exponential scale.

So a mech with the firepower of 20 isn't just 4 times stronger than a mecha with the firepower of 5.
Try maybe a hundred.

Of course this being an RP instead of some strict battle simulator, the limits aren't clearly drawn.
Even if you're mecha "only" has 20 for firepower it could damage another with the armor of 30.
Albeit only through considerable effort and by using your stronger if not the strongest attacks.
Similarly even if the enemy is faster and more mobile it doesn't mean you have no chance of hitting it.
You'd only be at a disadvantage. Sometimes terribly so.
But nothing you would be unable to solve with a surge of creativity.

So yeah, it's more or less just an ordinal scale.
It basically just tells who's better in what category.

Also for people who plan to create a profile now:
Keep the stats low

Unless your machine is very specialized, don't raise any of the stats above 20 or maybe 30. Overall point distribution should be between 100 to 200.
Super Robots are a slight subversion to this rule but I advise them to also remain lowish, still.

Like I said through the RP you're going to have a lot of chance to "upgrade" your mech.
And that can only be done if there's a reasonable room for improvement.


M1A2 Abrams (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Abrams)
Stats:
  • Strength: 3 (for towing)
  • Structure: 5
  • Firepower: 5
  • Performance: 1
  • Mobility: 5
  • Energy Output: 1
  • Sensors: 3

F-15 Eagle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_Douglas_F-15_Eagle)
Stats:
  • Strength: 1
  • Structure: 1
  • Firepower: 2 (10 w/ bombs)
  • Performance: 7
  • Mobility: 2
  • Energy Output: 1
  • Sensors: 7

AH-64 Apache (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_AH-64_Apache#Specifications_.28AH-64A.2FD.29)
Stats:
  • Strength: 2
  • Structure: 2
  • Firepower: 5
  • Performance: 2
  • Mobility: 5
  • Energy Output: 1
  • Sensors: 5


Title: Re: Mecha Heroes - Sign-Up and Concept Discussion Thread
Post by: KAIZA on August 16, 2013, 04:16:24 AM
Average Joe and Garbage are best characters. :3
I'll be working in a profile. Hopefully I'll have it done soon.
Title: Re: Mecha Heroes - Sign-Up and Concept Discussion Thread
Post by: Xamusel on August 16, 2013, 04:35:25 AM
I have to agree with KAIZA. They are best units.

...at least for jokes.

Now, I also am going to work on a profile, though consider this more Real Robot than KAIZA's (we spoke on Skype about this).
Title: Re: Mecha Heroes - Sign-Up and Concept Discussion Thread
Post by: Willy Vereb on August 16, 2013, 05:25:01 AM
Another thing we'd need to discuss is the setting. That's why this is called "Sign-up and Concept Discussion Thread".

The classic SRW set-up is that there's a world-wide government which is under attack by some alien threat.
Shall we go with this?

Another thing to consider is the average tech level. But I suppose we can judge that more accurately once the RP profiles are ready.
There are many other details we can go over.
Basically I don't wish to hold monopoly in this story. So I give you a chance to formulate it from the beginning.
Otherwise I can come up with the setting and basic plot quickly and sadly that's what I had to do in the previous such game.
Title: Re: Mecha Heroes - Sign-Up and Concept Discussion Thread
Post by: Xamusel on August 16, 2013, 05:53:08 AM
True.

Also, out of curiosity, do things like Striker Packs count as upgrades? KAIZA and I were talking about it, and we didn't know, unfortunately.

As for the setting, I would think that we could go with the Zentradie from the first Macross franchise as the enemies from outside our solar system, though that could mean someone would need to play as Hikaru Ichijyo (aka Rick Hunter in the dub called Robotech).

For the government, why not go with the Earth Federation and Neo Zeon, who are currently fighting each other for the third war in a row? It would make some sense to have Gundams involved at that point.

Anyway, just my two cents, nothing really concrete.
Title: Re: Mecha Heroes - Sign-Up and Concept Discussion Thread
Post by: Willy Vereb on August 16, 2013, 06:58:09 AM
True.

Also, out of curiosity, do things like Striker Packs count as upgrades? KAIZA and I were talking about it, and we didn't know, unfortunately.
If it's an integral part of how your mecha fights, it isn't.
Just like I can't ban other mechs from transforming, I won't prevent you from switching between various packs for combat.
But I will consider this when reviewing your mecha.
If overall it's too powerful, I might suggest you to tone it down a bit.
I doubt that would happen, though.

On the other hand if these "Strike Packs" are introduced only in later mission then it definitely counts as an "upgrade". Just like how a mecha suddenly unlocking a secret weapon does. I call these "hidden upgrades".
Albeit depending on circumstances I might deduce imaginary points for the "upgrade cost" of this.
As for how upgrading stuff works I'll detail later.

As for the setting, I would think that we could go with the Zentradie from the first Macross franchise as the enemies from outside our solar system, though that could mean someone would need to play as Hikaru Ichijyo (aka Rick Hunter in the dub called Robotech).

For the government, why not go with the Earth Federation and Neo Zeon, who are currently fighting each other for the third war in a row? It would make some sense to have Gundams involved at that point.

Anyway, just my two cents, nothing really concrete.



This is an entirely original RP, so even if we're fighting against the Zentraedi we don't need to feature canon characters.
Hell, you don't even need to use Valkyries!

Similar to the Gundam-like setting.
Even if the enemy are similar to the Zeon and Earth Federation, we don't need to make them exactly that.

Besides, both of these settings would spell extremely bad news for Earth.
In Macross the Zentraedi killed off pretty much anyone save for the crew of Macross.
In Gundam, in the first week of the One Year War the nukes and colony drops killed half of the population and spelled all other sorts of doom.

Oh well, not like the previous game's setting was any brighter, here it goes:

Quote from: Mecha Heroes Unlimited
Post-Crisis Calendar Year 20:

It's been more than a decade since Humanity's first contact with extraterrestrial life. Contrary to the expectations though, the aliens weren't peaceful. They were invaders called EM with the intention to conquer the entire world. Facing this new threat, all nations of Humanity made a hasty alliance and formed what would be later known as the Earth Sphere Union. But even the combined forces of the Earth were insufficient against the EM's superior technology. The aliens were using giant robots with nearly impenetrable armor and firepower previously unheard of. Despite Humanity's best effort they've lost more than 50% of their military power in only a few years.

That was until the appearance of the mysterious Professor M, a genius scientist and weapons designer. Believing that one can only fight poison with poison he developed a new kind of weapon, Mobile Suits. Imitating the style of the enemy these were giant humanoid machines allowing humans to fight the EM on almost even terms. Mobile Suits changed the war and helped Humanity to drive the EM out from the surface. The loses of the aliens were increasing.

But the EM's persistence knew no limits. With supplies that were seemed to be inexhaustible the EM continued the assault, slowly developing new and better means to threaten human lives. The Earth's orbit became a constant battlefield with the ESU forces engaged in a hopeless war of attrition. Paradoxically enough, those who lived on the surface experienced a false sense of peace, almost believing that the horrible EM wars were long over. With the immediate threat of human extinction seemingly gone, words criticizing the ESU's actions began to surface. Struck by internal strife and the external threat of the EM, the Earth Sphere Union was on the verge of collapse. The catastrophe was drawing near. Only a miracle could save humanity from destruction. A miracle accomplished by great people.

Humanity needed heroes!

I want to something at least marginally lighter now.
If I have to use a comparison, the previous game was like War of the Worlds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Worlds_%282005_film%29).
And I want the new one to be closer to Mars Attacks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Attacks!).
And again, I'd prefer to have a setting made not exclusively by me.

But yeah, a Gundamesque setting can also work.
Title: Re: Mecha Heroes - Sign-Up and Concept Discussion Thread
Post by: KAIZA on August 16, 2013, 08:43:58 AM
Well, I finally finished my profile. Anything I might need to fix? There probably is...
(http://i.imgur.com/DQQtW7Y.png)
Name: Maya Reisslitter
Gender: Female
Race: Human
Age: 20
Height: 171 cm
Weight: 61 kg
Rank/Title: Lieutenant - Eden Guardian
Special: Former Scavenger (2nd Class)

Appearance:
Silver, shoulder-length hair, with two long bangs framing her face and violet eyes. Wears a light violet tank-top, exposing her midriff, dark green cargo pants, and black boots with brown soles. She also wears black, fingerless gloves with large gray bracelets. While piloting Algravier, she usually wears a violet, form-fitting Pilot Suit.

Bio:
Maya and her sister Elise were orphaned at a young age when their settlement was attacked by Sweepers. Moving in with their relatives in the city of Eden, Maya grew up to become an Scavenger like her mother while her sister became a ZETA pilot for the UWF (United World Federation) Military. However, her sister lost her life during a rescue mission, leading to her resenting both the Sweepers and the Military. Years later, during one scavenging mission, she found the Algravier unit in a ruined laboratory, and due to a surprise Sweeper attack, she literally fell into the cockpit and linked with the giant robot. After a rough beginning, she reluctantly joined the Eden Guardians, a mecha squadron protecting the city, to become a better pilot, and to defend Eden from the Sweepers.

Personality:
Maya has a strong, down to earth personality., if a little stoic at times She always strives to improve herself, and never lets anything weigh her down. While serious most of the time, she does have a sense of humor, and enjoys occasionally teasing others. However, she seems to have a bit of trouble with authority (not helped by her dislike of the military), and prefers doing things her way. While sometimes this does lead her into trouble, she always does it with the best intentions and her determination and quick thinking allows her to always find a solution.


(http://i.imgur.com/6NZgTkI.png)
Name: Algravier - The Crimson Beast
Type: Unidentified Mecha (Super Robot)
Dimensions: 21 meters
Weight: 195 tons
Armor: Ceramic Titanium Alloy
Power Source: Zeoloid Engine
Propulsion System: Rocket Thrusters
Color Scheme: Crimson, Brown and Yellow

Stats:
Strength: 35
Armor: 25
Firepower: 20
Performance: 10
Mobility: 20
Energy Output: 25
Sensors: 15

Total: 150

Description:
A powerful, beast-like mecha discovered by Maya Reisslitter in the ruins of an old laboratory. The unit was initially found in a state of disrepair, but after it was awakened and eventually deactivated, the UWF Military took it and repaired it, upgrading it and outfitting it with newer weapon systems. Algravier is much more beastly and animalistic in appearance compared to the modern ZETA units, even focusing mainly on brute force during combat. It was given the nickname “The Crimson Beast” and “Demon Beast-Warrior” by onlookers and the military, respectively.

Weapons:
Reinforced Fists: Due to specializing in physical combat, Algravier's fists have been reinforced with durable alloys, which makes them deadly weapons and are its primary means of attack.
Blast Cannons: Algravier was outfitted with several small energy cannons, located on its torso. These cannons are capable of rapid-fire, sending a volley of energy blasts towards the opponent.
Retractable Iron Blades: Twin ceramic titanium blades, easily capable of slicing through almost any surface or material. Usually used in conjunction with Algravier's melee abilities.

Abilities:
Linker Core: Thanks to the Linker Core implanted on Maya, not only is she able to control Algravier, but it also connects their minds together. As such, Maya's emotions can have effects on Algravier's performance, including temporary boosts in strength, speed, and accuracy.
Zeoloid Wings: Used in conjunction with its rocket thrusters, Algravier is capable of producing “wings of light” using the energy stored in its engine, allowing it to fly.

Signature Moves:
Crimson Strike: Routing energy to its fist, Algravier punches the opponent with all its strength, usually penetrating through its armor and sometimes even through shields.
Crimson Booster Strike: Similar to the Crimson Strike, but Algravier uses its thrusters to increase its acceleration, increasing the force of the attack.
Blast Fire: Algravier uses its cannons to fire a continuous volley of energy blasts towards the enemy, at such tremendous speed that it is eventually torn apart.
Searing Blade: Energy is routed into one of Algravier's retractable blades, super-heating it, until it is capable of slicing the enemy in half in one swift strike.
Oriax Wave: Algravier's most powerful attack. Opening it's mouth, it begins charging and amassing energy (both from its own body and from the surroundings), before releasing it all in a powerful laser blast, capable of annihilating anything in its path, even piercing through enemy shields as if they were nothing.
As for the setting...I might have some ideas. I'll try to work something out tomorrow.
Title: Re: Mecha Heroes - Sign-Up and Concept Discussion Thread
Post by: Willy Vereb on August 16, 2013, 01:38:45 PM
Actually there's nothing really wrong with your submission.
If I have to compare to the previous game, yours would be slightly above the average. Which is pretty good for the first try.

My only nitpick is with the mecha's weight.
As somebody who studied engineering I know the mass parameters most mecha series give us are complete BS.
19.5 tons would be barely enough for the mecha's head, not to mention the rest of its body.
Even if your mech is powered by some sorts of pseudo-magical means, the titanium armor alone would weight more than a hundred tons.
I suggest adding another decimal to the weight stat, so it would be 195 tons.
It would be still ridiculously light but at least it makes some sense.
Title: Re: Mecha Heroes - Sign-Up and Concept Discussion Thread
Post by: Xamusel on August 16, 2013, 06:50:40 PM
Thanks for giving both of us answers to our questions. That was really appreciated.

As far as the Striker Packs, that was something of an example, not exactly what I was going to use (though close enough to what I would use). I'm creating a unit I decided to call the Duality Gundam, which is essentially a mix between the Strike Gundam and Aegis Gundam, so... yeah. That would be a good reason why I'm considering the use of "Packs".
Title: Re: Mecha Heroes - Sign-Up and Concept Discussion Thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on August 16, 2013, 07:21:43 PM
Even 195 tons seems way too light to me. A 10m by 10m by 10m cube of water would weigh about 1000 tons, and I doubt that an armoured mech would be less dense than water, since most metals are much more dense (hence why they sink) and there is little point in having a mech that is mostly empty space. Also, if it were lighter than that, then it would be able to float....
Title: Re: Mecha Heroes - Sign-Up and Concept Discussion Thread
Post by: KAIZA on August 16, 2013, 07:52:47 PM
Really applying physics to a giant robot which by all senses should collapse under its own weight in real life?
Anyhow, I used Mazinger's weight as a reference, but OK, I can up the weight.
Title: Re: Mecha Heroes - Sign-Up and Concept Discussion Thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on August 16, 2013, 08:02:02 PM
Well, yeah, but there's soft-sci-fi physics and then there's just plain wrong. Unless you want your mechs floating on water and made of some unobtainium then they should be denser....
Title: Re: Mecha Heroes - Sign-Up and Concept Discussion Thread
Post by: Willy Vereb on August 16, 2013, 08:27:28 PM
Even 195 tons seems way too light to me. A 10m by 10m by 10m cube of water would weigh about 1000 tons, and I doubt that an armoured mech would be less dense than water, since most metals are much more dense (hence why they sink) and there is little point in having a mech that is mostly empty space. Also, if it were lighter than that, then it would be able to float....
Actually, even if the mecha would be solid metal, its volume would never approach 1000 m^3.
The volume of the human body is around 0.07m^3.
Gundams and such are circa 10 times taller than a human.
If you use square-cube law then you have to multiply this by 1000.
So that'd be around 70 cubic meters.
A common type of steel has the density of around 7880 kg/m^3.
So if we build a 18 meter tall statue molded of solid steel, it's still "just" 551.6 metric tons.
Potentially larger since mechas tend to be blockier. And then it also has weapons to use.
And well, realistically they should also use materials more dense than steel. Especially for armor.
Still, not many mecha at that scale would realistically weight 1000 tons.
300-700 metric tons is a more accurate guess. Depending on a few things.
Of course if things a little different if the mecha exceeds 20 meters in height.
And there are larger ones still.

Also it worths noting that fighter planes are nearly as large as your average Mobile Suit. Yet they only weight 15-35 tons.
I fairly certain that most authors take these as basis for the ridiculously low mass ratings.
Which would be half-justified if the mecha's design indeed shows more similarities with that of a fighter. (Which they generally aren't)
The Union Flag (http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/SVMS-01_Union_Flag) from Gundam 00 is a good example for a "fighterized" mech.
Still, the various mechanisms that make the mecha move its joints adds up a considerable weight. So you'd be lucky to slim it down to 80-100 metric tons.


Really applying physics to a giant robot which by all senses should collapse under its own weight in real life?
Anyhow, I used Mazinger's weight as a reference, but OK, I can up the weight.
I see.
Yeah, I knew that mass figure seemed familiar.
Based on the mecha's cross-section we occasionally see in the series, even if the entire body of Mazinger Z is made of aluminium (Super Alloy Z is actually a derivate of aluminium), it'd be still around 200 metric tons or above.
Not 20.

And yeah, I realize this is a bit pedantic to ask.
But try to bear with it.
This will be the only time when I nitpick on such minor technicalities.
Title: Re: Mecha Heroes - Sign-Up and Concept Discussion Thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on August 16, 2013, 08:53:23 PM
Well, you do have a point about the relative weight of a fighter and, honestly, it probably is the case that a mech that can fly in the Earth's atmosphere would probably need to be closer to the weight of a fighter jet than what you're expecting. So, whilst 19.5 tons is a bit light even then, I suspect on second thought that 195 tons is, if anything, too heavy. I think a 195 ton machine would have real difficulties in flying, particularly since it almost entirely lacks aerodynamics.

There's a certain amount of a trade-off here. Either we can assume that the mech is a realistic weight and then ask how the hell it can fly, or we can assume it is made of unrealistically light materials. Either way the physics is very dubious.
Title: Re: Mecha Heroes - Sign-Up and Concept Discussion Thread
Post by: Willy Vereb on August 16, 2013, 09:05:59 PM
Well, I always go via the "accept what I see" assumption.
I see mecha that appears to be several hundred tons heavy, unaerodynamic, wingless yet capable of flight.
Then of course that means that despite the above handicaps the mecha is capable of flight.
It does help that many mechs are capable of pulling impossible stunts in the air that would reasonably require triple digit G accelerations if not above.
So they probably accomplish this via brute force.
With sufficient thrust things like mass and air drag become less relevant.

And there are tons of other engineering issues that comes with the great mass and humanoid shape. Mechas just plainly ignore these in general.
Title: Re: Mecha Heroes - Sign-Up and Concept Discussion Thread
Post by: Xamusel on August 16, 2013, 09:09:10 PM
Yeah, things like Plot Armor in different mecha shows make it tough to say how heavy a mech is, like, say, in Gundam Wing.

Isn't the plot armor (Gundanium in Wing) four times stronger than regular Titanium but somewhere around half the weight? Or am I mis-remembering?
Title: Re: Mecha Heroes - Sign-Up and Concept Discussion Thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on August 16, 2013, 09:13:22 PM
Well, I always go via the "accept what I see" assumption.
I see mecha that appears to be several hundred tons heavy, unaerodynamic, wingless yet capable of flight.
Then of course that means that despite the above handicaps the mecha is capable of flight.
It does help that many mechs are capable of pulling impossible stunts in the air that would reasonably require triple digit G accelerations if not above.
So they probably accomplish this via brute force.
With sufficient thrust things like mass and air drag become less relevant.

And there are tons of other engineering issues that comes with the great mass and humanoid shape. Mechas just plainly ignore these in general.

Yes, but my point is that, if you accept that, then you should also accept the unrealistically low weight. Because, honestly, it is considerably easier to reduce the weight of something beyond what we are currently capable of than it is to break basic laws of physics regarding flight....
Title: Re: Mecha Heroes - Sign-Up and Concept Discussion Thread
Post by: Willy Vereb on August 16, 2013, 09:17:02 PM
With sufficient thrust even a solid block of steel can fly.
There's nothing too magical about it aside from how you get the power.
And seriously fiction an breaking the rules of physics come hand in hand.
I would rather accept that instead of believing in a blatant lie with evidence proving the opposite.
Title: Re: Mecha Heroes - Sign-Up and Concept Discussion Thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on August 16, 2013, 10:05:28 PM
How do you know that these mechas aren't made from extremely light materials? It's just as plausible as inventing some new propulsion system that allows a thousand-ton humanoid with no aerodynamics to fly.

If you're going to accept breaking the rules of physics then you shouldn't do so selectively. If it's possible for a block of steel to fly then it's possible for a giant mecha to weigh as little as a fighter jet even with armour and the like.
Title: Re: Mecha Heroes - Sign-Up and Concept Discussion Thread
Post by: Willy Vereb on August 16, 2013, 10:20:49 PM
Nah, such lightweight materials would draw in even more issues which you appear to be ignoring here.
And then there's the fact that the stated components of mechs are generally just ordinary elements like steel titanium or some type of carbon derivate. Those would weight what you can expect of them.
Plus the firepower of even the most conventional-looking weapons in mech fictions tend to be massively exaggreviated.
Simple missiles and Bazooka shots in UC Gundam occasionally put the MOAB (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GBU-43/B_Massive_Ordnance_Air_Blast_bomb) to shame, despite being magnitudes smaller in size.
Or a mecha suddenly putting to stop when previously it was flying faster than 10km/s.
So idea of ridiculous amount of thrust is right in their valley.
When you actually look into it in detail, fiction commits outright homicide on the rule of physics.
Like I said just go with the ride and accept what you see.
Title: Re: Mecha Heroes - Sign-Up and Concept Discussion Thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on August 16, 2013, 10:32:10 PM
The thing is, if you're saying "ignore the laws of physics", then that includes mass, as demonstrated by the canonically-given masses. You can't say "ignore the laws of physics except the ones that I like", either you take notice of them all or you ignore them all.

Plus, if an F-16 can weigh that little, why not a Gundam?
Title: Re: Mecha Heroes - Sign-Up and Concept Discussion Thread
Post by: Willy Vereb on August 16, 2013, 10:34:12 PM
You may want to read this thread again.
Because you just went back to the starting point of the debate.
Title: Re: Mecha Heroes - Sign-Up and Concept Discussion Thread
Post by: Xamusel on August 16, 2013, 10:38:11 PM
Cherry, while you're offering good points, I should mention that each Gundam is different depending on the timeline (and even when in the timeline). For instance, the fictional alloy Gundanium can only be made in stable gravity spots in Earth's orbit, where the Space Colonies are found. This alloy is what allows a Gundam to move and act like it should (really, really, really high-performance Mobile Suit) while still being as strong as it is.

If my memory serves right, Gundanium is the step above Neo Titanium, which is twice as strong (and heavy) as regular Titanium. Gundanium, however, is more like four times the strength of regular Titanium and something like half the weight... or I could be off on the weight.
Title: Re: Mecha Heroes - Sign-Up and Concept Discussion Thread
Post by: Willy Vereb on August 16, 2013, 11:00:58 PM
Also I'd like to add Mike, that simply accepting mechas have unreasonably light mass won't solve too many problems.
Namely that their performance is still just flat ridiculous.
So there's no point denying the weight such construct would realistically have.

It's like trying to fix a single letter in an essay full of grammatical errors.


But I guess there's also a confusion regarding what we see as "truth" here.

You appear to take in the "official" statement on the mecha's weight as absolute.
I look at the mecha, take the various details into account and then approximate how much such machine would weight.
Because visual representation and such are a much more integral part of a fiction. Like I said, I take in what I actually see.

Anyways, I think this discussion went on for long.
We should be getting back to topic.
Title: Re: Mecha Heroes - Sign-Up and Concept Discussion Thread
Post by: Xamusel on August 16, 2013, 11:05:38 PM
Yeah, good idea, let's get back on topic.

How about we determine the ultimate enemies of the RP?
Title: Re: Mecha Heroes - Sign-Up and Concept Discussion Thread
Post by: Willy Vereb on August 16, 2013, 11:16:02 PM
Well, not sure of the true ultimate enemies.
But we can discuss the "initial" enemy.
In true SRW fashion the faction first faced in the game will be a "warm up" compared to what the other enemies are.
Both gameplay and somewhat even plot-wise.

So yeah, the enemy.

First question, what would it be?
Aliens or a human faction?
And if human, is this faction something players can join to or something completely antagonistic?
Title: Re: Mecha Heroes - Sign-Up and Concept Discussion Thread
Post by: Xamusel on August 16, 2013, 11:22:29 PM
Hmm... what about the Vajra? I mean, those alien bug-like things from Macross Frontier.

If that doesn't work, what about the Principality of Zeon (before the events of the One Week War)?
Title: Re: Mecha Heroes - Sign-Up and Concept Discussion Thread
Post by: Willy Vereb on August 16, 2013, 11:28:56 PM
Like I said we don't need to pick an already existing fictional race/faction.
Actually, we mustn't.
It's better if we come up with an original one.

Albeit either the Vajra or the Zeon could be an inspiration for it.
Or in case of a weird situation, both.

Personally I'd rather support some sort of alien invaders instead of a human one.
An opposing human faction can lead to complication right from the beginning. Which might not be the best start.
Of course, this is my opinion.
We can have an enemy like Zeon if you guys really want to.
Title: Re: Mecha Heroes - Sign-Up and Concept Discussion Thread
Post by: Xamusel on August 16, 2013, 11:32:43 PM
I get what you mean by that. I really do.

Hmm... so, if the enemies aren't to be pre-made, then... what do we do about it?

I can think of an enemy force idea. A military comprised primarily of aquatic aliens that have a Zeon-like country that they serve... with water-filled cockpits for their units.
Title: Re: Mecha Heroes - Sign-Up and Concept Discussion Thread
Post by: Willy Vereb on August 16, 2013, 11:42:12 PM
Well, a completely original enemy faction is something you can freely develop.
They'd slowly shape up as the story progresses.

Hm, Neo-Nazi fish-aliens?
Sounds like an unique idea.
Albeit we can tinker on it more after decided on whether the enemy will be human or alien.
But from the looks of it, you're siding more on the idea about alien invaders.
Title: Re: Mecha Heroes - Sign-Up and Concept Discussion Thread
Post by: Xamusel on August 16, 2013, 11:47:57 PM
Indeed. I was thinking of something original with the aliens.

Glad that it's unique.
Title: Re: Mecha Heroes - Sign-Up and Concept Discussion Thread
Post by: Cherry Lover on August 17, 2013, 12:05:01 AM
Also I'd like to add Mike, that simply accepting mechas have unreasonably light mass won't solve too many problems.
Namely that their performance is still just flat ridiculous.

No, I understand that, but it's still somewhat more realistic.

Quote
So there's no point denying the weight such construct would realistically have.

It's like trying to fix a single letter in an essay full of grammatical errors.

Actually, that's kind-of what you're doing, by insisting on "realistic" masses whilst ignoring everything else that doesn't make sense.

Quote
But I guess there's also a confusion regarding what we see as "truth" here.

You appear to take in the "official" statement on the mecha's weight as absolute.
I look at the mecha, take the various details into account and then approximate how much such machine would weight.
Because visual representation and such are a much more integral part of a fiction. Like I said, I take in what I actually see.

The problem is that your eyes can deceive you. You don't know what is inside these things.

And, it's not so much that I take the official weight as absolute as it is that I think it's absurd for you to say "well, the weight is wrong" whilst ignoring the fact that making it heavier makes the physics even less plausible than it already is.

Quote
Anyways, I think this discussion went on for long.
We should be getting back to topic.

Well, yeah, perhaps....
Title: Re: Mecha Heroes - Sign-Up and Concept Discussion Thread
Post by: Willy Vereb on August 18, 2013, 06:56:55 PM
Anyways, I haven't heard KAIZA's response but me and Xamusel choose aliens.

So we'd have alien aggressors as the first enemy.
Xamusel's idea is original but maybe too weird for the first type of foe we face.
Title: Re: Mecha Heroes - Sign-Up and Concept Discussion Thread
Post by: Xamusel on August 18, 2013, 07:15:57 PM
Oh, right, KAIZA has college classes to attend.

That would explain it.

Well, how about we wait for him to get back before we make any final decisions, Willy?
Title: Re: Mecha Heroes - Sign-Up and Concept Discussion Thread
Post by: Willy Vereb on August 19, 2013, 06:22:31 AM
College on Saturday and Sunday?
I guess these aren't the regular morning classes, then.

Anyways, I might post my character profile soon.
Title: Re: Mecha Heroes - Sign-Up and Concept Discussion Thread
Post by: Xamusel on August 19, 2013, 06:33:29 AM
Yeah, that could very well be, Willy.

Also, I would like it if someone (maybe KAIZA) would draw my mecha, which would be from a yet-to-be-created VN set in a fictional Gundam universe. I'd even like it if someone drew the Gundam with the different packs attached to it (and unattached as well).
Title: Re: Mecha Heroes - Sign-Up and Concept Discussion Thread
Post by: KAIZA on August 19, 2013, 06:53:25 AM
Sorry I'm late! Sorry I'm late!
Not college classes on weekend, but some family business to attend to.
*ahem*
Well, I was going to go with aliens in any case, but this was the idea I had in mind (the really short version):
Basically, an unknown energy source is discovered on Earth, and soon, people begin fighting over it. However, an alien race looking for the same power source comes in and tries to take it away, so the two factions put away their differences to stop them. However, it's eventually revealed the aliens actually wanted to get rid of the energy source, because it attracted the attention of an intergalactic locust swarm (so to speak), which is now making its way to Earth. Not helping matters is that one of the aliens actually wanted this, as he wanted to obtain control of this swarm. And so, the others team up, defeat the evil alien traitor and his lackeys, and defeat the locust queen once and for all. Cue the epilogue.
Not the most original, but it can be worked with.
Title: Re: Mecha Heroes - Sign-Up and Concept Discussion Thread
Post by: Xamusel on August 19, 2013, 07:19:23 AM
Hmm... I think I like this idea.

Willy? What do you say?
Title: Re: Mecha Heroes - Sign-Up and Concept Discussion Thread
Post by: Willy Vereb on August 20, 2013, 09:08:17 AM
Sorry I'm late! Sorry I'm late!
Not college classes on weekend, but some family business to attend to.
*ahem*
Well, I was going to go with aliens in any case, but this was the idea I had in mind (the really short version):
Basically, an unknown energy source is discovered on Earth, and soon, people begin fighting over it. However, an alien race looking for the same power source comes in and tries to take it away, so the two factions put away their differences to stop them. However, it's eventually revealed the aliens actually wanted to get rid of the energy source, because it attracted the attention of an intergalactic locust swarm (so to speak), which is now making its way to Earth. Not helping matters is that one of the aliens actually wanted this, as he wanted to obtain control of this swarm. And so, the others team up, defeat the evil alien traitor and his lackeys, and defeat the locust queen once and for all. Cue the epilogue.
Not the most original, but it can be worked with.
Not a bad idea at all.
But I don't think it's possible to outline the whole plot for what is essentially a free forum RP.
It'd develop naturally. And unexpectedly.

Anyways, like I said, this is a good setting.
So what would be that certain energy source/mineral/whatever everyone is fighting for?
You have to develop this pretty well.
And keep it balanced.
Make this energy source too useful and it'd dominate everything.
Make it too useless and the reader would wonder "why they even bother?".
This is the one fault I see with your idea.
It's especially problematic for an SRW-like verse where many things are meshed together.

But I believe this order of events can also occur without relying on some "super energy source" as plot device.
Actually, your idea pretty much describes the plot of SRW OG in rather broad strokes.
While it had hints of aliens attacks, the plot actually did start with the emerge of the Divine Crusaders which suddenly planned to take over the world.

In short, while with some conditions I detailed above, consider this plot being accepted by me.
So then all 3 of us agree.

On the other hand I'm still wary of beginning the game in a state of "civil war" (as in, humans vs humans).
It'd lead to the players being separated, supporting either group or maybe even neither.
Which complicates things in the beginning.
This "civil war" is a good background and the past allegiance of characters can also lead to interesting conflicts.
But like I said, it'd lead to complications which we might not want in the beginning.
At best we can do a "prologue mission" where everyone is present in the form of a major battle.
Maybe even the one which later decides the war. (If it finishes before the aliens arrive.)
But after that it's the best if we do a bit of time-skip to the present when they're fighting a new alien threat.

That's what I think.
Later there could be strife, betrayals and other twists.
But in the beginning it's the best if it's just black and white.
Humans fighting against the "evil" aliens (who are either really malicious or not, depending on how we develop the plot).
Title: Re: Mecha Heroes - Sign-Up and Concept Discussion Thread
Post by: Willy Vereb on August 21, 2013, 12:18:40 AM
Okay, might as well post my own profile, as well.

(http://i.imgur.com/sTRpCOs.jpg)

Name: Kurt Weissesdonnern (Alias: White Lightning)
Gender: Male
Race: Human
Age: 27
Height: 5'9" (175 cm)
Weight: 160 lbs (72 kg)
Rank/Title: Specialist/2nd Lieutenant
Special: ESP

Bio:
TBA

Personality:
Kurt


(http://i.imgur.com/2V5WmdN.jpg)


Name: TCF-0000X7 "White Phantom"
Type: Experimental Transformable Frame (Real Robo)
Dimensions:
  • height: 16.4 meters (in combat mode)
  • length: 14.7 meters (in performance mode)
  • wingspan: 13.9 meters
Weight: 44.8 metric tons
Armor: Hypercarbon Composite
Powerplant: Integrated Plasma Fuel Cell System
Propulsion: Plasma Torches (x4), auxiliary plasma jet motors (x24)

Stats:
  • Strength: 10
  • Structure: 5
  • Firepower: 20
  • Performance: 40
  • Mobility: 20
  • Energy Output: 15
  • Sensors: 20

Description:
The TCF-0000X7 is an experimental Combat Frame (mecha) entering its latest phase of development. Created with excessive speed in mind, the light structure of this machine was heavily inspired by the design of aircrafts. As such the TCF-0000 is a skinny mech, almost nothing more than pure thrusters with 4 sticks for limbs. Anything not absolutely necessary for the machine's operation got removed. Paper-thin armor only enough to resist the missile attacks from infantry. In place of the massive hydraulics the TCF-0000 uses magnets and electric motors. Conventional rockets also got replaced with plasma jet engines that run entirely on energy, not needing to pack extra weight for fuel. Most parts of the mech can even serve multiple functions at once. For example the armor is a new type of hypercarbon polymer and its special feature that it also stores plasma in the space between the molecules. As such the TCF-0000's frame has the secondary function as fuel tank/energy battery, with no need for those to occupy extra space. Lastly, the TCF-0000 is capable of transformation, switching between the more mobile Combat Mode and the speed and cruise focused fighter plane like Performance Mode. Thus making the mecha earn its designation: Transformable Combat Frame (TCF).

After version X6 and the arrival of the new pilot (Kurt), the TCF-0000 earne the nickname of White Phantom. The mecha sported excellent speed and suffiicently heavy firepower. Its primary weapon is an adaptive rifle that can change between various previously configured firing modes. Its lower legs carried micro-missile launchers with the total capacity of 160. And for melee the mecha could compensate for its fragility by a pair of plasma sabers, stored in the underarm containers. For close-in-weapons the mecha's head sports a pair of pulse vulcans shooting a torrent of super-hot plasmic bursts.

Weapons:
  • IWS-04EX Adaptive Rifle: The primary weapon of the White Phantom. A versatile system that combines the features of the railgun, beam rifle, pulse laser and plasma launcher to fit for many roles at once. The weapon has massive capacity for customizations, allowing it to be tailor-fit for the pilot's style.
  • TEW-177 Pulse Vulcan x 2: A pair of small rapid-firing energy weapons that release bursts of superheated plasma. They are relatively weak and mostly used for point-defense.
  • CIW-3007F Plasma Saber x 2: Hilts that store and emit concentrated streams of super-hot plasma contained by electromagnetic fields in the shape of glowing bluish white blades. These are the melee weapons to compensate for the White Phantom's relative lack of strength, capable of cutting though any regular Mobile Suit.
  • MMM-80 Missile Theater Launcher x 2: Hidden launchers found in the White Phantom's legs, each containing 80 "micro-missiles" with the diameter of only 100mm. While small these missiles are fast and highly maneuverable, equipped with tiny plasma jet engines. MMM-80 is capable of launching several different types of missiles, albeit only one of these are specilaized for engaging other mechs. Said missiles have specialized dense penetrators to pierce any common Mobile Suit's armor, and then still carry enough explosives to cause considerable damage within.

Abilities:
  • Transformation: The White Phantom is the first ever transformable Combat Frame. It borrows many features from other existing transformable mechs while also introducing revolutionary changes. The White Phantom is an extremely lightweight machine that can switch between the fast and economic fighter form (Performance Mode) and the versatile humanoid form (Combat Mode). The transformation is executed by the machine's own magnetic joints and a series of electromagnets, lessening wear and allowing to change between the two modes rapidly.
    • Combat Mode: The White Phantom's default form is when it assumes a humanoid shape. Focuses on mobility and overall fighting ability. In this form the White Phantom can access all of its weaponry and aim with its primary weapon with complete freedom.
    • Performance Mode: The mode which focuses on speed and energy-efficient travel. In performance mode the White Phantom assumes the shape smilar to a fighter plane, with all the Plasma Torches facing in one direction for maximal acceleration. In Performance Mode the combat options are more limited and the pilot must generally resort to dogfight tactics. On the other hand the Performance Mode's optimized energy consumption makes this form the ideal to use the stealth field at its full potential.
  • Flight: Thanks to its light frame and set of plasma jet engines, the White Phantom is capable of flight even under the effects of gravity. Especially in Performance Mode which was designed with efficient and high-speed atmospheric flight in mind. To ensure this, in Performance Mode the machine can generate a plasma field which alters the mecha's air resistance thus lessening the drag forces. As a result the  White Phantom can even achieve speeds as fast as 36000 km/h or Mach 30. Albeit due to the increased energy requirements the White Phantom cannot maintain this speed for extended periods.
  • Stealth Umbrella: Aside from manipulating the drag forces, the full-scale plasma field has a secondary role. Using the plasma's general characteristic to absorb electromagnetic waves, it can be tuned to defeat radar and many other forms of active detection. To an extend the field can also regulate heat, toning down the outsourcing heat of the plasma jets. In the atmosphere this feature can be effectively used to become stealthy and rather difficult to detect. In space complete stealth is impossible. Albeit it still makes targeting the White Phantom more difficult.
  • Defense Rod: A reinforced rotor-like blade found on the mecha's left arm. Experimental technology to replace the bulky physical shields. While regular shields are passive and basically little more than an extra layer of armor, the Defense Rod is an active protection. It uses the same electromagnetic motors that move the left elbow joint, the Defense Rod rotates precisely and on high speed to deflect an incoming projectile. This allows the White Phantom to handle certain attacks which otherwise its armor would be hopeless to withstand. The Defense Rod can be also coated in a plasma field to effect beams and other energy attacks. Unfortunately this mechanism has two drawbacks. First, it was designed to handle a singular, moderately powerful attack. Which means weapons with high rate of fire can overcome it. Second, it requires precise positioning and skill which currently only its test pilot Kurt Weisserdonner can replicate.

Signature Moves:
  • None

Left a few things like my character's bio empty for now.
I will fill them up once we discussed the details of the starting plot.
Title: Re: Mecha Heroes - Sign-Up and Concept Discussion Thread
Post by: KAIZA on August 21, 2013, 05:59:13 AM
Not a bad idea at all.
But I don't think it's possible to outline the whole plot for what is essentially a free forum RP.
It'd develop naturally. And unexpectedly.
No, I know. It was just a possible outline.
Anyways, like I said, this is a good setting.
So what would be that certain energy source/mineral/whatever everyone is fighting for?
You have to develop this pretty well.
And keep it balanced.
Make this energy source too useful and it'd dominate everything.
Make it too useless and the reader would wonder "why they even bother?".
This is the one fault I see with your idea.
It's especially problematic for an SRW-like verse where many things are meshed together.
I see. It could work for the backstory and also as the power source of some Mechas, but I also had the idea it could be used for the usual "mid-season upgrade" for the Mechas when the second alien threat appears.
But I believe this order of events can also occur without relying on some "super energy source" as plot device.
Actually, your idea pretty much describes the plot of SRW OG in rather broad strokes.
While it had hints of aliens attacks, the plot actually did start with the emerge of the Divine Crusaders which suddenly planned to take over the world.

In short, while with some conditions I detailed above, consider this plot being accepted by me.
So then all 3 of us agree.
Huh...interesting. So, we're all in agreement, then? :3
Good.
On the other hand I'm still wary of beginning the game in a state of "civil war" (as in, humans vs humans).
It'd lead to the players being separated, supporting either group or maybe even neither.
Which complicates things in the beginning.
This "civil war" is a good background and the past allegiance of characters can also lead to interesting conflicts.
But like I said, it'd lead to complications which we might not want in the beginning.
At best we can do a "prologue mission" where everyone is present in the form of a major battle.
Maybe even the one which later decides the war. (If it finishes before the aliens arrive.)
But after that it's the best if we do a bit of time-skip to the present when they're fighting a new alien threat.

That's what I think.
Later there could be strife, betrayals and other twists.
But in the beginning it's the best if it's just black and white.
Humans fighting against the "evil" aliens (who are either really malicious or not, depending on how we develop the plot).
Well, the war between factions can be part of the backstory, and the prologue starts when the two factions join together to start fighting the aliens. Like I said, the idea can still be developed, and all that backstory can make for delicious drama/plot/character development later on if we apply them to the characters (who could have sided either way or be neutral before the RP)
Title: Re: Mecha Heroes - Sign-Up and Concept Discussion Thread
Post by: Mordalfus Grea on September 22, 2013, 08:14:22 PM
I may join sometime, I am a pretty huge Gundam fan and I have created a lot of OC Mobiles suits over a period of time. So I gotta find a few, remodel them to work for this RP and gauge their stats