Dark Side of the Moon
Type Moon => General Discussion => Topic started by: lantzblades on April 14, 2013, 02:07:20 AM
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A thread to discuss the characters of type moon, I figure we needed one.
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Well, OK, let's talk about Sakura.
Personally, she's my favourite character. What I like about her is her mental strength and general kindness and niceness. Despite everything she's been through, she still lives as normal a life as possible given the circumstances, and is a fundamentally kind and caring person. Further, despite all the years of torture, when Zouken wants her to fight in the war she has the strength to say "no", despite the fact that she fully expects to be tortured. Additionally, in HF, she sent Rider up against Zouken when he was attacking Shirou, despite the fact that Zouken could easily have tortured or killed her for that.
She's smart, kind, caring and actually very strong. True, she ends up turning Dark in HF, but she's under a hell of a lot of pressure from AM, and even then she showed a hell of a lot of mental resolve to hang on for so long despite the pressure from AM.
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I think her kindness comes from the abuse to be honest. I think given what the nasuverse is she'd be a rather heartless magi if left in normal care. As for AM, I don't think it is pressure, at least not the traditional mental pressure we've seen with mind attacks.
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I think her kindness comes from the abuse to be honest.
I don't think that makes the slighest bit of sense given human nature.
I think given what the nasuverse is she'd be a rather heartless magi if left in normal care.
What, like Rin is you mean...?
As for AM, I don't think it is pressure, at least not the traditional mental pressure we've seen with mind attacks.
Well, what is it, then?
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It's like being swallowed by the Borg, you are a person and have a voice but the crowd drowns it out. And I would think worse than rin
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It's like being swallowed by the Borg, you are a person and have a voice but the crowd drowns it out.
What is that in response to?
And I would think worse than rin
Why? What makes Sakura a fundamentally less-nice person than Rin?
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To the AM thing. And Sakura isn't it is just that the other magi families are elitist bastards
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To the AM thing.
Ah, OK, that does kind-of make sense. What I said is still basically right, though. It took a lot of mental strength to keep her own voice from being drowned out for so long.
And Sakura isn't it is just that the other magi families are elitist bastards
So? Rin was raised to be a bitch, and she still turned out nice. I don't see Sakura being any different. She's just fundamentally a nice person.
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So? Rin was raised to be a bitch
no, she wasn't, you're forgetting she was left with a bunch of supposed rules but no one to enforce or correct them.
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So? Rin was raised to be a bitch
no, she wasn't, you're forgetting she was left with a bunch of supposed rules but no one to enforce or correct them.
Well, she had Kotomine, and also her own desire to obey her father. Whilst Rin might have ended up worse if Tokiomi had lived, I don't think that her humanity would have disappeared. Similarly, Sakura raised by a normal magus family would still not be bad.
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I didn't say disappear
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I didn't say disappear
Well, the problem here is that you've not defined the situation. You said her abuse led to her being a nice person, but that's not what you acutally meant. What you meant was that her not being raised as a magus made her a nice person. It is true that, if she'd been raised as the Matou heir by someone like Zouken, she likely would have been a bit less nice. Even so, though, it's hardly like he encouraged her to be a good person. He wanted her to reach out and take what she wanted and to be generally selfish, because doing so suited his goals (as long as she didn't rebel against him, which selfishness plus his level of control would ensure). So, the fact that she turned out nice regardless of that means she likely would have turned out pretty nice no matter what.
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What you meant was that her not being raised as a magus made her a nice person.
no I didn't
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What you meant was that her not being raised as a magus made her a nice person.
no I didn't
Well, then what did you mean? Because being abused certainly isn't the reason she's nice, she would have been a nice person if she'd grown up normally (if you don't assume magic gets in the way).
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the abused are more empathic by virtue of their experience
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the abused are more empathic by virtue of their experience
I don't think that's actually true, and indeed I think it's usually the opposite. But, regardless, I don't see Sakura being any less nice than Rin.
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it is true mike.
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it is true mike.
Why are you saying that? Like I said, I see it as generally the opposite.
Regardless, though, I see no reason to believe she'd be any less nice than Rin. You can believe whatever the hell you like....
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Why are you saying that?
because I actually know people who prove that it is true.
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Why are you saying that?
because I actually know people who prove that it is true.
How do you know that they wouldn't have been nice anyway?
Also, there are plenty of examples of the opposite, where someone who has been abused has ended up abusing others as a result. Indeed, many murderers were abused as children, and many child abusers were themselves abused.
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there are plenty of examples of the opposite
the fact that you are arguing this reflects badly, but fine whatever
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there are plenty of examples of the opposite
the fact that you are arguing this reflects badly, but fine whatever
What?
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You are arguing for the negative, it reflects badly, let's just move on.
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Well, move on to what?
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To another character
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Well, do you have any to discuss, since I already did one...?
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Let's go with shirou
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Well, OK, what do you think about him?
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Personally I find him brick wall stupid but that's what makes him work as a character which is also the reason why I dislike hf, he shifts too much to the right to make the events in the route believable in the way nasu claims he intended.
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Personally I find him brick wall stupid but that's what makes him work as a character
He's not stupid, just naive and generally trusting. The two aren't the same.
which is also the reason why I dislike hf, he shifts too much to the right to make the events in the route believable in the way nasu claims he intended.
What do you mean "shifts too much to the right"?
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No he's stupid, it's hero stupid which is markedly better than regular stupid but it is still stupid. By too far I mean that his character shift is unbelievable to me in hf
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No he's stupid, it's hero stupid which is markedly better than regular stupid but it is still stupid.
You only have to look at Archer to see that Shirou isn't actually an idiot. He is just naive, trusting and very selfless.
By too far I mean that his character shift is unbelievable to me in hf
I got the "too far" bit, what I didn't get was the "to the right" bit....
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Archer is proof he is an idiot, seriously think about his plan and then how he walks off stage, as for the to the right bit it's a way of describe his position as he's conservative in hf which is associated with the right wing
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Archer is proof he is an idiot, seriously think about his plan and then how he walks off stage
Well, no, Archer is clearly very smart, he's just desperate.
as for the to the right bit it's a way of describe his position as he's conservative in hf which is associated with the right wing
No, he's not. Being unwilling to murder innocent people in cold-blood is not a right-wing position. Also, Shirou is always somewhat conservative. In HF he becomes more Chaotic Good rather than Neutral or Lawful Good, which I would say is a shift to the left if anything.
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Intelligence has nothing to do with being stupid. Don't being up alignments,they are poor points at best and stupid the rest of the time.
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Intelligence has nothing to do with being stupid.
Erm, what?
Don't being up alignments,they are poor points at best and stupid the rest of the time.
No more so than defining someone's political position on the basis of whether or not they like to protect their loved ones....
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Personally, I like Shirou very much and, IMO, he's one of the best VN protagonists because he actually has a personality unlike most of them (looking at you, Tohno Shiki, even though you're still better than most protags). Well, I just hate self-insert protagonists, but I've come across people who hate him for the opposite. Well, lolopinions.
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Personally, I like Shirou very much and, IMO, he's one of the best VN protagonists because he actually has a personality unlike most of them (looking at you, Tohno Shiki, even though you're still better than most protags).
Yeah, exactly.
Shirou has a genuine personality, which develops over the course of the story, and the story revolves around that. Unlike many VN protags, Shirou is someone you can have opinions on.
Well, I just hate self-insert protagonists, but I've come across people who hate him for the opposite. Well, lolopinions.
Well, it depends on the story. For something like FSN you definitely don't want that, but in other stories (especially more porn-centred ones) you might.
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I could be able to calculate pie to the 1000000 place but still be stupid, I mean I know shit all about acupuncture so in a room full I'll be the stupidest guy around if I try to talk about it.
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Yeah, I guess.
It depends what exactly you mean by "stupid"....
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hence why I call him hero stupid
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Yeah, OK, fair enough.
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Now I have opinions regarding each individual shirou
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Well, go on then....
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Well would you prefer the long answer or the short one?
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Well, the long answer allows for more discussion, so I'd say that....
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Using the fate route as a base for shirou I'd say ubw is a logical conclusion of his character arc while hf is a dystopian view of the same arc. Now largely due to nasu basically forced a conclusion on a fairly complex subject unfairly, not to mention dumping rin's character growth onto hf which is crap imo
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Using the fate route as a base for shirou I'd say ubw is a logical conclusion of his character arc while hf is a dystopian view of the same arc. Now largely due to nasu basically forced a conclusion on a fairly complex subject unfairly
I don't think that's really true, particularly since HF isn't really "dystopian". It's just more that HF shows what happens when he does hit a fundamental problem with his ideal, and he's not ready for it. I suspect UBW Shirou would take a similar approach, actually, but HF Shirou was dumped into a difficult situation very quickly.
not to mention dumping rin's character growth onto hf which is crap imo
I think that was necessary given the nature of HF as a story. Her character development needed to address Sakura, and Sakura couldn't be dealt with in UBW and still have HF work as a route.
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Hf shirou was dumped into the damn Kobayashi, hf didn't need to exist then. Ubw was rin's route and so if her development means hf doesn't work then so be it
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Hf shirou was dumped into the damn Kobayashi, hf didn't need to exist then. Ubw was rin's route and so if her development means hf doesn't work then so be it
The thing is, it's not fair to drop Sakura's character development in favour of Rin's.
Sure, UBW was Rin's route, but that doesn't mean it has to be entirely centred around Rin, or that all of Rin's development has to come in that route. Why should Sakura's character development be shunted into Rin's route and, consequentially, limited to things that are directly Rin-centric?
There is simply no way to have all of Rin's character development in Rin's route and all of Sakura's character development in Sakura's. They're just too connected. Nasu decided that it would make for a better story if you had Sakura's development in her own route and the Sakura-centric parts of Rin's development there also, because HF would just not work if Sakura's relationship with Rin came up beforehand, whereas the converse is not true.
The only way I can see for UBW to contain all of Rin's character development would be for Sakura to not have a route, and given her nature as a character that would massively limit her development, not to mention being unfair. You simply cannot expect the routes to be as specific as you want, because there is simply too much inter-connection.
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Rin orbited her route at best
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I don't deny that, but I don't think Sakura was the cause of that, and nor could they have really put all the Sakura/Rin stuff into UBW without completely screwing up the story.
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The point is I find the dump to be cheap
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The point is I find the dump to be cheap
Like I said, HF wouldn't work without that, and Sakura is a character who is designed to have a route of her own. I understand your reasoning about Rin's character development, but I'm not sure how it would be fixed.
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It already barely works
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Well, possibly, but as a basic principle a Sakura route requires there to be some stuff left unresolved in Rin's route or, else, for Sakura to get a lot of her character development outside her route. Otherwise it would just be repetitive.
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I don't buy that, sounds like an excuse
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I don't buy that, sounds like an excuse
How is it?
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It seems more that nasu dumped rins character development into hf to pad out the route and to give fake emotional gravity to the whole thing.
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No, it just doesn't make sense for Rin not to get character development in HF, because of her relationship with Sakura. And, that development could not be done elsewhere for the same reason.
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See that is what I doubt
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The thing is, character development for Sakura and Rin goes together in that respect. Either you do it in Rin's route or you do it in Sakura's route, or else you duplicate the whole lot.
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It would not be duplicated and even then the split could have been done along character lines
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It would not be duplicated
How wouldn't it be?
and even then the split could have been done along character lines
I don't see how it could be in a sensible manner, both girls will naturally develop in that way if their relationship is resolved. Further, even mentioning their relationship in UBW would ruin the surprise of HF.
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Hf ruined a lot so taking the hit of a lost surprise is fine by me
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Hf ruined a lot so taking the hit of a lost surprise is fine by me
Yeah, but Nasu isn't writing the story to ensure every route is designed around one character, he's writing it to make a good story. I do wish Sakura's situation would have been dealt with more in UBW, but I'm not sure how that could have been done without making HF completely obsolete.
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Given the plot it is obsolete
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Given the plot it is obsolete
What? How is it?
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Because literally anything would be better than it. They Worf so many characters for no good reason
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Because literally anything would be better than it. They Worf so many characters for no good reason
You might think that, but personally I'd rather Sakura not get completely ignored....
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I did not say that
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Well, that would come under the definition of "anything"....
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Contextually in this case no it wouldn't
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Contextually in this case no it wouldn't
Well, OK....
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It means literally means any thing would be an improvement in Sakura's route and obviously Sakura's route involves Sakura, hence why I want to write an alternative route to hf
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It means literally means any thing would be an improvement in Sakura's route and obviously Sakura's route involves Sakura, hence why I want to write an alternative route to hf
Well, OK.
I'm not convinced HF is particularly bad (although there are some issues with it), but I'm sure as hell not going to discourage you from writing an alternative. More Sakura-centric fics are always welcome.
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It was completely contrived given what I saw
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Well, I don't think it was, personally (although there were better ways of resolving the situation), but I can't be bothered to argue it.
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Any way with shirou and Sakura out of the way who next
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Well, not sure really. I might have a go at doing one for Rider later.
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Not much there in terms of canonical information
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Well, personally, what I like about Rider is how loyal and protective she is. I don't like servants who take the attitude "I'll obey whoever I am contracted to because the rules say so", but Rider's not like that. She genuinely cares for Sakura, and makes every effort to protect her as a result. She does do some rather dubious things, yes, but she never abandons Sakura, even when things look hopeless, she always sticks by her. But, at the same time, she doesn't always just do what she's told, to the point of fighting against Sakura when doing so will help her in the long-term. I admire her resilience and absolute refusal to give up on the person she loves no matter what.
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To be fair most servants are dead set on winning for their own measure so obeying your master regardless of whom is sorta the normal thing to do, saber is the same with shirou and lancer made kirei use a command spell to keep him from killing the priest, so its not like that loyalty is exclusive to rider
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To be fair most servants are dead set on winning for their own measure so obeying your master regardless of whom is sorta the normal thing to do
The difference is that Rider's goal is to save Sakura. She isn't protecting Sakura because she wants to win, she wants to win because she wants to protect Sakura. Also, I said loyalty, not obedience. Rider does not obey Sakura unquestionably, there are several occasions where she goes against Sakura's orders because she thinks it's in her best interests. However, she does genuinely care for and love Sakura, and tries very hard to protect her.
To see the difference you only need to look at Rider's attitude towards Shinji. She detests the guy, but she still obeys him because she wants to protect Sakura and she knows that, if she disobeys him, Sakura will pay for it. Plus, if she wins the war she can hopefully obtain freedom for Sakura. But, she has no issue with aiding Shirou in defeating him when he threatens Sakura, and nor is she particularly upset if he gets harmed.
saber is the same with shirou and lancer made kirei use a command spell to keep him from killing the priest
Well, Saber is the same with Shirou to a certain extent, yes, but Saber puts obtaining her goal first, at least initially. Hence why, if you don't get enough affection points for Saber in Fate, she ends up killing Shirou to obtain the Grail. Rider, conversely, is always protective of Sakura despite Sakura not really being in a position to protect or be affectionate towards her.
As for Lancer, he just liked Bazett, because she was a hot chick and a cool fighting partner. As opposed to Kirei, who is a dick who is trying to make him suffer as much as possible.
so its not like that loyalty is exclusive to rider
The distinction is that Rider's loyalty has nothing to do with Sakura being her master. Even Saber is loyal to Shirou mainly because she's his servant, at least initially. In Rider's case she would be just as loyal and caring towards Sakura if she were summoned by someone else with the same knowledge and understanding of her plight.