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[Cherry Lover]

EDIT: Also, Mike, the problem is that Lantz would have just had him dodge or avoid it no matter what I do, despite Raul not only having the advantage of surprise, but also speed, agility and skill. Why? Because Lantz is like that. That's why. Just look at the little hissy fit he's throwing here.

Regardless of whether that is true or not, it doesn't mean you should be able to control his Knights. You wouldn't let me decree that your weapon was snapped in half by my last attack or that I'd stolen it from you, the same should apply to familiars and the like.

If Lantz does unreasonably refuse to let them die, you are perfectly entitled to complain to Elf about that, but you are not entitled to control his familiars in order to bypass that. You don't know what they are capable of or how they would act in such a situation, so you cannot reasonably RP them.

[Alice]

I think there should be an additional GM ruling on that army of knights. I honestly think that it's obscenely overpowered to have an enormous army at your disposal whenever you want. It means that the majority of our characters could be defeated by sheer numbers. If Toshi can generate the knights pretty much endlessly, then that's way too much. Add that in with Toshi's invincibility and he's pretty much unstoppable. Which isn't good. At all.   

But yeah, let's just wait for Elf on the npc control thing. It probably wouldn't hurt for her to clarify the rules on that anyway.

[lantzblades]

Doesn't matter what you believe arch, I have the right to have the PC in the room react to you entering.

it's not invincible. That word has never applied to him

[Arch-Magos Winter]

In this case, not really. Why?

Because there's no time for him to react - Inferno Cop's got his stuff to do as well, and Raul is, in a dive, far faster than Satoshi. He's also got the element of surprise. There's not enough time for Suetoshi to react to Raul suddenly appearing.

I think there should be an additional GM ruling on that army of knights. I honestly think that it's obscenely overpowered to have an enormous army at your disposal whenever you want. It means that the majority of our characters could be defeated by sheer numbers. If Toshi can generate the knights pretty much endlessly, then that's way too much. Add that in with Toshi's invincibility and he's pretty much unstoppable. Which isn't good. At all.   

But yeah, let's just wait for Elf on the npc control thing. It probably wouldn't hurt for her to clarify the rules on that anyway.

It is, it's so fucking OP especially with the familiar shit that Lantz is trying to pull now.

EDIT: No, he might not be invincible, but he's the next best thing according to you. Forest couldn't stop him. He tanked a Caldebolg. He can't die. He regenerates at impossible speeds. So for all intents and purposes, he is invincible.

EDIT OF THE EDIT:
Actually due to the fact that he can't fucking die, he IS invincible.

[Cherry Lover]

I think there should be an additional GM ruling on that army of knights. I honestly think that it's obscenely overpowered to have an enormous army at your disposal whenever you want. It means that the majority of our characters could be defeated by sheer numbers. If Toshi can generate the knights pretty much endlessly, then that's way too much. Add that in with Toshi's invincibility and he's pretty much unstoppable. Which isn't good. At all.   

But yeah, let's just wait for Elf on the npc control thing. It probably wouldn't hurt for her to clarify the rules on that anyway.

I think it would be deeply unfair on people who use familiar summoning as a weapon, and also inconsistent with what is happening right now. If Magos can control these knights then I can dictate that Ruby becomes suicidal and throws herself on a bonfire.

It also theoretically shouldn't matter. If both players are RPing fairly and have full knowledge then the knights should be no less likely to die if the creator is controlling them than if the opponent is. However, as a basic principle of RPing a player should decide what happens to their weapons, at least as long as they have control over their actions (which is true for familiars etc.).

It is Elf's decision, but I think it would cause problems in the future if people were allowed to control familiars made by other players, and deny that player the right to react to their actions. It is absurd to have a player control a familiar in attack but not in defence.

In this case, not really. Why?

Because there's no time for him to react - Inferno Cop's got his stuff to do as well, and Raul is, in a dive, far faster than Satoshi. He's also got the element of surprise. There's not enough time for Suetoshi to react to Raul suddenly appearing.

Doesn't matter. If you attack my character I still get the chance to decide what happens. You can't claim to have disarmed me without giving me the chance to confirm that, regardless of how quick you are.

Actually due to the fact that he can't fucking die, he IS invincible.

Toshi is, sure (but, then, since you can't force death on him without Lantz's consent anyway, I don't think that matters much), but the knights aren't.

[Arch-Magos Winter]

Exactly, and they're also NPC's. As you can see from earlier, Lantz would just have ignored it, had Ryan miraculously dodge, cure cancer, and become a new one of his characters just because.

For that matter, seeing Raul before he launches his attack and having never indicated it before IC would be what is commonly known as 'Metagaming,' which is bullshit. Raul has the drop on Ryan, there's no doubt about that.

[lantzblades]

The point of this is solely the right to react which is what I have the right to do. Regardless of the outcome they are my pawns so to speak so I have the right to describe what happens to them.

[Cherry Lover]

Exactly, and they're also NPC's. As you can see from earlier, Lantz would just have ignored it, had Ryan miraculously dodge, cure cancer, and become a new one of his characters just because.

No, they're not NPCs, any more than Rider's nails are NPCs. They're mechanical constructs that fight on Toshi's behalf.

If you're calling them NPCs then all familiars, sentient weapons are NPCs and should be controllable by the enemy. Which means that fighting as a familiar summoner is extremely unfair because your opponents can decide if your offensive or defensive ability takes damage whilst you cannot do the same for them.

And, for that matter, if Toshi's knights are NPCs then so is Lawrence's Geist (or whatever it's called). You don't have a seperate sheet for him and he doesn't have a character slot, but yet he's a seperate entity with his own thought processes. Therefore by your logic he's an NPC and other people should be able to control him.

For that matter, seeing Raul before he launches his attack and having never indicated it before IC would be what is commonly known as 'Metagaming,' which is bullshit. Raul has the drop on Ryan, there's no doubt about that.

That is another argument entirely. Lantz still should get to react, even if the only logical reaction is to say that the knight is cut in half.

I can see why this could cause issues if you were fighting 50 of the things, and I could sympathise with your argument in that case, but you're not, you're fighting one.

[Arch-Magos Winter]

No, they're not NPCs, any more than Rider's nails are NPCs. They're mechanical constructs that fight on Toshi's behalf.

If you're calling them NPCs then all familiars, sentient weapons are NPCs and should be controllable by the enemy. Which means that fighting as a familiar summoner is extremely unfair because your opponents can decide if your offensive or defensive ability takes damage whilst you cannot do the same for them.

And, for that matter, if Toshi's knights are NPCs then so is Lawrence's Geist (or whatever it's called). You don't have a seperate sheet for him and he doesn't have a character slot, but yet he's a seperate entity with his own thought processes. Therefore by your logic he's an NPC and other people should be able to control him.

The Driver is an intrinsic part of Lawrence. He's like an organ, or Jack's Beast. This is a tricky thing to cover, because while in a way he's an NPC, in a way he's also Lawrence. While you might not be able to control him without controlling Lawrence, he's still able to be targeted or destroyed. Basically, he's part of the Giest package. It's more or less like this - the Sin-Eater is the Geists host. It's a symbiotic relationship, and one all his powers and existence run off of - but you have to get through Lawrence to harm his Geist. He pretty much lives inside Lawrence's soul - hell, he in many ways now IS Lawrence's soul.

And the point of making Lantz's Knights NPC's is because they're as you state, things that fight on his behalf. They aren't familiars, they're fucking soldiers. They aren't something he has a meaningful connection to apart from their taking orders from him. They are in no way like Kuro or the Driver - they aren't even fucking MENTIONED in his backstory.

[Cherry Lover]

No, they're not NPCs, any more than Rider's nails are NPCs. They're mechanical constructs that fight on Toshi's behalf.

If you're calling them NPCs then all familiars, sentient weapons are NPCs and should be controllable by the enemy. Which means that fighting as a familiar summoner is extremely unfair because your opponents can decide if your offensive or defensive ability takes damage whilst you cannot do the same for them.

And, for that matter, if Toshi's knights are NPCs then so is Lawrence's Geist (or whatever it's called). You don't have a seperate sheet for him and he doesn't have a character slot, but yet he's a seperate entity with his own thought processes. Therefore by your logic he's an NPC and other people should be able to control him.

The Driver is an intrinsic part of Lawrence. He's like an organ, or Jack's Beast. This is a tricky thing to cover, because while in a way he's an NPC, in a way he's also Lawrence. While you might not be able to control him without controlling Lawrence, he's still able to be targeted or destroyed. Basically, he's part of the Giest package.

Yeah, my point is that if you're going to say "people can't uniquely control other entities however linked they are to their characters" then that should apply universally and not only to Lantz, as you seem to want it to.

And the point of making Lantz's Knights NPC's is because they're as you state, things that fight on his behalf. They aren't familiars, they're fucking soldiers. Having 10k familiars is broken in so many damn ways.

They are not quite familiars, but they are similar.

And, honestly, I would say that a player should be able to control an army of NPCs that is obedient to them, even if they're self-aware. It doesn't make sense for them not to.

For example, with the Don, he should be able to fully control his goons, rather than having us act on their behalf.

[lantzblades]

The knights, to clarify work on ninja logic according to their construction. Ninjas work like this

1 ninja = awesome

50 ninja = dead meat fodder

it continues to reduce from there. The longer Satoshi takes the closer the get to awesome but the ten thousand are just fodder (and were specifically made to hang Archer or Shirou up if they entered the castle.)

[Arch-Magos Winter]

They are not quite familiars, but they are similar.

And, honestly, I would say that a player should be able to control an army of NPCs that is obedient to them, even if they're self-aware. It doesn't make sense for them not to.

For example, with the Don, he should be able to fully control his goons, rather than having us act on their behalf.

Mike, if they aren't familiars he has no right to dictate what happens to them. Kuro and Ruby are obviously familiars, the Knights are just... bullshittingly overpowered.

And the Don's situation is far different, mainly because they're NPCs that any character should be able to interact with, but they aren't PC's. And PC's take priority over NPC's. Look, it's rather complicated, so let's just wait for fucking Elf here.

The knights, to clarify work on ninja logic according to their construction. Ninjas work like this

1 ninja = awesome

50 ninja = dead meat fodder

it continues to reduce from there. The longer Satoshi takes the closer the get to awesome but the ten thousand are just fodder (and were specifically made to hang Archer or Shirou up if they entered the castle.)

And their are 24 of them already. They're already violating the Conservation of Ninja's rule. Hence, this guy is a mook, not a badass.

You shouldn't even get to invoke that sort of logic with these things anyway.

[lantzblades]

I just explained how they work and they are stronger than the fodder.

[Arch-Magos Winter]

That just sounds like something you pulled out of your ass Lantz, and I highly suspect it is. Combined with the fact that that isn't how familiars fucking WORK, you're really just grasping for straws here, and trying to say they aren't overpowered.

I'm not buying it. At all. There's no detail or any shit like that thrown in about them ANYWHERE in the RP thread that justifies this.

[Cherry Lover]

They are not quite familiars, but they are similar.

And, honestly, I would say that a player should be able to control an army of NPCs that is obedient to them, even if they're self-aware. It doesn't make sense for them not to.

For example, with the Don, he should be able to fully control his goons, rather than having us act on their behalf.

Mike, if they aren't familiars he has no right to dictate what happens to them. Kuro and Ruby are obviously familiars, the Knights are just... bullshittingly overpowered.

They fulfill basically the same role as a familiar.

And the Don's situation is far different, mainly because they're NPCs that any character should be able to interact with, but they aren't PC's. And PC's take priority over NPC's.

The problem is that, when it comes to player-made NPCs that are strongly connected to a particular player, that player is far more aware of their abilities, motives etc. than anyone else and, further, is relying on those NPCs to fulfill their role in the RP. Of course PCs take priority, NPCs don't get any protection from dying for example, but if an NPC is controlled by a particular player and strongly linked to them then that player should control that NPC. It's what we've been doing so far, and you are only arguing against it because you are looking for an excuse to fuck over Lantz.

Look, it's rather complicated, so let's just wait for fucking Elf here.

Well, it's definitely her decision, but we're allowed to put our views across.

The knights, to clarify work on ninja logic according to their construction. Ninjas work like this

1 ninja = awesome

50 ninja = dead meat fodder

it continues to reduce from there. The longer Satoshi takes the closer the get to awesome but the ten thousand are just fodder (and were specifically made to hang Archer or Shirou up if they entered the castle.)

And their are 24 of them already. They're already violating the Conservation of Ninja's rule. Hence, this guy is a mook, not a badass.

You shouldn't even get to invoke that sort of logic with these things anyway.

Well, it seems more like a justified thing to me. If you spend an hour making a knight then it's going to be better than one you spend a few seconds on. If you're making 24 then you can afford to take your time a bit, if you're making 10,000 then you can't.