Favorite Type-MOON Character(s)?

[Cherry Lover]

Well, yeah, although if "good guy" is the only qualification then there are a lot more than just him....

[Cursed by Creation]

Who else but the King of Conquerors Broskander the Great?

Seriously, Iskander is the epitome of the word AWESOME.  This is the only person I know of in the Nasuverse apart from Enkidu that Gilgamesh respects.  To say nothing of the fact that his servants continue to follow his flag even beyond death itself (Ionian Hetairoi).  Did I mention that serving him is a ticket to becoming a Heroic Spirit (I doubt I'm the only one who noticed Lord Waver El-Melloi II marching with the Ionian Hetairoi)?

Next is Arcueid; what's there not to like about a beautiful yet airheaded girl who just happens to be the most powerful being on the planet (in the present of course as Gilgamesh could easily stomp her as would the Ether Liners and the A-Rays)?

Third, we have MoS Shiro Emiya.  Kiritsugu 2.0...yes please.  AFAIK, MoS is the unofficial third EPIC ENDING of HF.

Regarding Heaven's Feel...I hated it, TBH.  It's too dark, and Sakura's backstory (which ironically enough is her biggest appeal for me) is just too damn cruel.  I also know the Matou have somewhat of a sinister reputation, which makes me wonder why Kiritsugu never bothered to investigate and preemptively strike them down before the Fourth War.  Out of the three routes, the only one I really liked what UBW (idealistic Shiro in Fate and broken Shiro in HF canon both repulse me for some reason) because there Shiro learns how not to follow his ideals, but simply to use them to temper his own life.  Which is actually how things are in reality; we don't follow our ideals blindly, nor do we simply abandon them - we use them as a guide for life.

[Cherry Lover]

Third, we have MoS Shiro Emiya.  Kiritsugu 2.0...yes please.  AFAIK, MoS is the unofficial third EPIC ENDING of HF.

Hell no. After the way he betrayed Sakura, all that asshole deserves is an agonisingly painful death.

Also, MoS wouldn't be "epic". Assuming Shirou does somehow find a way to win, it would be seriously anti-climatic, because if he gets into any actually epic battles he would be seriously outclassed and would die without a doubt, particularly given that Archer is still around and has absolutely nothing preventing him killing Shirou any more. He'd just hide in the shadows and then snipe the enemy masters or whatever. It would be extremely dull and depressing.

And, honestly, if you don't like "dark", I don't see how you can possibly like MoS. MoS is the darkest possible path Shirou can follow, and ends badly for him and everyone he knows.

Regarding Heaven's Feel...I hated it, TBH.  It's too dark, and Sakura's backstory (which ironically enough is her biggest appeal for me) is just too damn cruel.

Well, Sakura's backstory is definitely cruel, but I don't think that makes the route as a whole bad. I think Nasu is very good at giving characters horrible backstories....

I also know the Matou have somewhat of a sinister reputation, which makes me wonder why Kiritsugu never bothered to investigate and preemptively strike them down before the Fourth War.

I don't think the Matou are particularly well-known, honestly. Tokiomi certainly didn't seem aware of Zouken's true nature (although he must surely have had some idea), and he's far closer than Kiritsugu is. Plus, Zouken is hardly a threat outside of Fuyuki, so there are bigger things for Kiritsugu to deal with.

Out of the three routes, the only one I really liked what UBW (idealistic Shiro in Fate and broken Shiro in HF canon both repulse me for some reason) because there Shiro learns how not to follow his ideals, but simply to use them to temper his own life. 

Honestly, I dislike UBW because it's played as happy whilst Sakura is left to be tortured to death by Zouken whilst her sister and the guy she loves run off to London together.

Which is actually how things are in reality; we don't follow our ideals blindly, nor do we simply abandon them - we use them as a guide for life.

Honestly, I think HF Shirou fits that just as well as it does UBW Shirou. He doesn't simply "abandon" his ideals, he just accepts that, to be human, you can't really consider all lives equally. He still tries to protect everyone else, he just refuses to murder Sakura in cold blood to do so.

[Cursed by Creation]

Out of the three routes, the only one I really liked what UBW (idealistic Shiro in Fate and broken Shiro in HF canon both repulse me for some reason) because there Shiro learns how not to follow his ideals, but simply to use them to temper his own life. 

Honestly, I dislike UBW because it's played as happy whilst Sakura is left to be tortured to death by Zouken whilst her sister and the guy she loves run off to London together.

Personally, I think Zouken is dead in Fate and UBW, probably killed by Kirei (who really hates him).

Third, we have MoS Shiro Emiya.  Kiritsugu 2.0...yes please.  AFAIK, MoS is the unofficial third EPIC ENDING of HF.

Hell no. After the way he betrayed Sakura, all that asshole deserves is an agonisingly painful death.

And you think Kiritsugu wouldn't have done the same?  One life...to save many others.  Kiritsugu would have accepted that as fair, and so did MoS Shiro.

[Cherry Lover]

Out of the three routes, the only one I really liked what UBW (idealistic Shiro in Fate and broken Shiro in HF canon both repulse me for some reason) because there Shiro learns how not to follow his ideals, but simply to use them to temper his own life. 

Honestly, I dislike UBW because it's played as happy whilst Sakura is left to be tortured to death by Zouken whilst her sister and the guy she loves run off to London together.

Personally, I think Zouken is dead in Fate and UBW, probably killed by Kirei (who really hates him).

How? His soul is in a worm in Sakura's heart. And, if Kirei can kill him so easily in Fate and UBW, why can't he do so in HF?

Third, we have MoS Shiro Emiya.  Kiritsugu 2.0...yes please.  AFAIK, MoS is the unofficial third EPIC ENDING of HF.

Hell no. After the way he betrayed Sakura, all that asshole deserves is an agonisingly painful death.

And you think Kiritsugu wouldn't have done the same?  One life...to save many others.  Kiritsugu would have accepted that as fair, and so did MoS Shiro.

Yeah, and Kiritsugu is a dick, at least prior to the fourth war. I don't like him either.

And, no, it is not "fair". Sakura has been tortured almost her entire life, and then she gets murdered in cold blood by the one person she trusted. How the fuck is that "fair"?

[Cursed by Creation]

Out of the three routes, the only one I really liked what UBW (idealistic Shiro in Fate and broken Shiro in HF canon both repulse me for some reason) because there Shiro learns how not to follow his ideals, but simply to use them to temper his own life. 

Honestly, I dislike UBW because it's played as happy whilst Sakura is left to be tortured to death by Zouken whilst her sister and the guy she loves run off to London together.

Personally, I think Zouken is dead in Fate and UBW, probably killed by Kirei (who really hates him).

How? His soul is in a worm in Sakura's heart. And, if Kirei can kill him so easily in Fate and UBW, why can't he do so in HF?

No idea; but that's the only thing I can think of why he doesn't make a move in both routes.

Yeah, and Kiritsugu is a dick, at least prior to the fourth war. I don't like him either.

True, but I still like him.

And, no, it is not "fair". Sakura has been tortured almost her entire life, and then she gets murdered in cold blood by the one person she trusted. How the fuck is that "fair"?

It saves more people; which is the same logic used by Alaya when it's Counter-Guardians kill individual Humans to ensure the survival of the species.

[Xamusel]

*sigh* Okay, could you two please quit arguing? I mean, I'm starting to get irritated by the inane fighting between you two... and I don't like being irritated.

Also, Cursed, Cherry's a massive Sakura fan. That should be reason why it's not exactly a good thing to bring up MoS!Shirou to him here or anywhere else.

[Cherry Lover]

Out of the three routes, the only one I really liked what UBW (idealistic Shiro in Fate and broken Shiro in HF canon both repulse me for some reason) because there Shiro learns how not to follow his ideals, but simply to use them to temper his own life. 

Honestly, I dislike UBW because it's played as happy whilst Sakura is left to be tortured to death by Zouken whilst her sister and the guy she loves run off to London together.

Personally, I think Zouken is dead in Fate and UBW, probably killed by Kirei (who really hates him).

How? His soul is in a worm in Sakura's heart. And, if Kirei can kill him so easily in Fate and UBW, why can't he do so in HF?

No idea; but that's the only thing I can think of why he doesn't make a move in both routes.

He doesn't make a move in the other routes because he never manages to activate Sakura. Without that, he's better-off waiting for the next war and keeping himself hidden.

Yeah, and Kiritsugu is a dick, at least prior to the fourth war. I don't like him either.

True, but I still like him.

Fair enough.

And, no, it is not "fair". Sakura has been tortured almost her entire life, and then she gets murdered in cold blood by the one person she trusted. How the fuck is that "fair"?

It saves more people; which is the same logic used by Alaya when it's Counter-Guardians kill individual Humans to ensure the survival of the species.

Yeah, and? That doesn't make it "fair".

It's made pretty clear in the game that Alaya has no concept of fairness or justice. It just wants the human race to survive. That's why Archer gets so cynical about heroism after being a Counter Guardian, because he doesn't feel like he's truly saving people, even if he technically is.

Also, in Sakura's case specifically, he doesn't even have the excuse of knowing she is going to kill people. He only has Kotomine telling him that she will eventually go mad and do so, he has no actual evidence of that and she is not an immediate threat. It might not be possible to save everyone, but MoS Shirou doesn't even try to save Sakura. He just abandons her the minute she looks like a possible threat. Doing that to anyone would be dickish, doing it to the girl you love is just horrendous.

Also, Cursed, Cherry's a massive Sakura fan. That should be reason why it's not exactly a good thing to bring up MoS!Shirou to him here or anywhere else.

No, he's quite entitled to like characters I don't like. I'm never going to see MoS Shirou as anything other than a murderer and betrayer on the level of Judas (or Altima...), though.

[Cursed by Creation]

I'd just like to say that I don't hate Sakura.  The True End for HF is actually good, but dying in MoS would be preferable IMO compared to the lonely life awaiting her in the Normal End.  That has got to be one of the most bittersweet endings in video game history.

As for abandoning her in MoS, well yeah it is betrayal of the highest magnitude, but in hindsight it's not really all that different from what Kiritsugu did to his father.

[Cherry Lover]

I'd just like to say that I don't hate Sakura.  The True End for HF is actually good, but dying in MoS would be preferable IMO compared to the lonely life awaiting her in the Normal End.  That has got to be one of the most bittersweet endings in video game history.

Honestly, I can't argue with that (and, I never claimed you hated Sakura).

Well, except for describing the Normal End as "bittersweet". I would call it an outright downer ending....

But, yeah, that ending is one of the saddest proper endings to a game I think I've ever seen. I was crying most of the way through, and even watching it the fourth or fifth time it still made me cry.

As for abandoning her in MoS, well yeah it is betrayal of the highest magnitude, but in hindsight it's not really all that different from what Kiritsugu did to his father.

I think the biggest difference is that Kiritsugu's father was actually intentionally responsible for multiple deaths (or, at very least, entirely uncaring about people dying as a result of his actions), and if he was left to go free he would kill more. Sakura was not.

[Cursed by Creation]

Dark Sakura left on her own in a bad end would only result in the deployment of Counter-Guardians.  At best Fuyuki/Japan/East Asia-West Pacific would be wiped from the face of the planet.  At worst, Angra Mainyu devours all of Humanity.

[Cherry Lover]

Dark Sakura left on her own in a bad end would only result in the deployment of Counter-Guardians.  At best Fuyuki/Japan/East Asia-West Pacific would be wiped from the face of the planet.  At worst, Angra Mainyu devours all of Humanity.

Yes, but HF Shirou doesn't leave her on her own and Darkened. Plus, at the point when he makes the MoS decision, he has no way to know that it could possibly get that bad. He is unaware that Sakura is the shadow, and his only reason for killing her is the possibility of her later going insane and killing people for prana. Which can never have anything more than a local effect.

Plus, any use of the Grail will have the same effect. And, honestly, I think that the chances of the Grail being destroyed safely in an MoS route are far less than they are in a route where he continues to protect Sakura, certainly based on the information he had there.

The problem with the Utalitarian argument of "well, killing Sakura saves hundreds of people in the town" is that the danger to the lives of everyone in Fuyuki from the Shadow (or anything else) pales in comparison to the danger to the entire world of anyone who will use the Grail winning the war and, therefore, the logical decision for Shirou is whatever decision allows him to win the war most effectively. And, given that he lacks a servant at that point, his best option for winning is to keep Ilya, Sakura and Rin on his side and fighting with him. Therefore, killing Sakura is not actually the best option even from the "greater good" viewpoint.

[Cursed by Creation]

He could side with Illya...Rin's gone insane from killing her sister, so Illya is his only possible ally.  Or Kirei...which would probably end with a repeat of the debacle at the end of the Fourth War.

[Xamusel]

Fair point about liking characters you might hate, Cherry, didn't realize that... though the Altima reference might have gone over his head.

[Cherry Lover]

He could side with Illya...Rin's gone insane from killing her sister, so Illya is his only possible ally.

Except that Ilya won't trust him any more. In rejecting Sakura he also rejected her. Plus, she can now quite legitimately accuse him of being just like her father.

Or Kirei...which would probably end with a repeat of the debacle at the end of the Fourth War.

He could side with Kirei, yes, and I think it's actually the most likely outcome. However, I am absolutely certain that him doing so would result in him as the "winner" of the war watching helplessly as Gil drowns the world in Grail Mud....