ero&lemon discussion

[Alice]

The problem here is that rape is kinda, well... it's kinda a touchy subject. Saying that rape victims are into one type of sex or another is getting into some sensitive territory. The other problem here is that what lantz said is making it sound like a blanket statement, and then not providing links or anything of any sort to back up said statement, and combining that with the sensitivity of the material, well... Yeah. Honestly, it might not hurt to have links of some kind here, or just drop the subject entirely, because of how sensitive this topic is. Because.... yeaaaaahh....

Honestly, a change of subject pretty soon might benefit everyone. We've been getting into some pretty uncomfortable territory here... Mike, I know you well enough that you're not trying to hurt anything, but that last post definitely isn't helping. ^^"

[Cherry Lover]

The problem here is that rape is kinda, well... it's kinda a touchy subject. Saying that rape victims are into one type of sex or another is getting into some sensitive territory. The other problem here is that what lantz said is making it sound like a blanket statement, and then not providing links or anything of any sort to back up said statement, and combining that with the sensitivity of the material, well... Yeah. Honestly, it might not hurt to have links of some kind here, or just drop the subject entirely, because of how sensitive this topic is. Because.... yeaaaaahh....

Well, yeah, I know rape is a touchy subject, it's just unfortunately also part of my interests when it comes to erotic work. And, BDSM in general is even more so, which means it's kind-of hard for me to discuss anything without bringing it up.

Also, I think you are slightly misinterpreting Lantz's statement. He wasn't saying "all rape victims would benefit from doing BDSM", he was saying "victims benefit from being able to put the event behind them, and BDSM can be a way to do that for some people".

Honestly, a change of subject pretty soon might benefit everyone. We've been getting into some pretty uncomfortable territory here...

Sure, but it's kind-of hard for me to talk about lemons without mentioning BDSM stuff and, well, Sakura is my favourite character, so....

Mike, I know you well enough that you're not trying to hurt anything, but that last post definitely isn't helping. ^^"

Yeah, it's mostly in response to some crap I read on BL about me wanting to enslave Sakura and being jealous of Zouken. I'm sick of people making up bullshit about me and it going unchallenged, and I can't challenge it on BL, so....

[lantzblades]

No X, in this case, it's not. Because as mike says, I don't care if you believe me.

[Alice]

....lantz, you do know that's a really bad response to have, especially when discussing subject matter as delicate as this, don't you?

Quite frankly, lantz, after certain things that you've written, I think you should kinda present proof here. Lest you sink even lower in my books than you already are. Because mother of christ. Because otherwise I'd even be tempted to say that you don't even have the right to discuss this, because Jesus Christ, are you coming off as rather disrespectful and quite frankly, creepy here.

Thin ice, lantz. Thin. Ice.

[lantzblades]

The accounts of others in my personal life are not my business to share and no business beyond those people they choose to tell. In short no Alice, I will not give you links. In the future don't ask for such things.

[Alice]

...lantz, how is giving links stepping into your personal life? All you'd have to do is link a few legit studies. That's it. But no. Quite frankly lantz, what you're doing here kinda comes off as trolling. Respond like this again, and you're getting another warning, understood? Because how dare you treat something like rape as petty as this? You have absolutely no right whatsoever.

[lantzblades]

Because a large part of this consensus is from my personal life, I'm not fucking trolling or treating anything as petty. Don't ever fucking accuse me of that again. I won't take such shit talk lightly. I've let alot go but I won't be fucking warned for having a sense of god damn decency for my friends Alice.

[Alice]

...That's it. lantz, you've crossed the line.

Take a two week vacation. Be grateful this isn't a permaban.

[Cherry Lover]

OK, we need to discuss this. Bans are given out by the admins as a group, not one individual admin. I've reversed it for the moment, until we can get an actual group consensus on the matter.

[Arch-Magos Winter]

OK. Lantz. HEre's the thing.

Alice was never asking you about your personal life, as 'Your own personal life' is not an appropriate source for a topic as sensitive as this.  You need links to studies and the like, to prove your thesis, or to do research yourself and get it peer reviewed. So no, your personal life doesn't matter in this. It never did.

So of course then you accuse her of shittalking you when you refuse to act like an adult and back up your argument with links. Honestly, I think a ban for you is far too long in coming, but with Mike at your side you probably will avoid an actual punishment.

[Cherry Lover]

Arch, just keep the fuck out, we don't need the pot stirring.

As for "academic studies", who the hell is going to go around asking rape victims "hey, I'm doing a study, do you like BDSM?". Because that damn-well would be insensitive, and it's hardly a world-shattering question to answer. I doubt such studies exist, and if you're seriously suggesting that Lantz should go out as a private citizen and try to make such a study and get it peer-reviewed then I am just going to laugh at how utterly ridiculous you are being.

So, he's relying on information from personal friends and the like, which, whilst not absolute proof of his opinion, is still enough to allow him to legitimately bring it up. And, BTW, I made the exact same damn statement (before Lantz did, in fact), so if he is wrong to say it then so am I....

Sorry, but if someone says "rape victims don't like BDSM" it is entirely reasonable to say "actually, yes, some of them do". I don't see how that is even a particularly controversial statement, and it is entirely relevant to the discussion given Sakura's backstory. Perhaps this entire argument should have been avoided, yes, but that is no excuse for continuing it by demanding actual academic studies which Lantz obviously doesn't have, and nor should Lantz be expected to retract his opinion just because he doesn't have firm proof for it. As he and I both said, X is entirely justified in saying "I don't believe it" on that basis, but since Lantz isn't bothered about convincing anyone I don't see the problem.

[Arch-Magos Winter]

It's more the 'It's benificial for them to practice BDSM' bit than them liking it.

[Cherry Lover]

Well, I do see the logic in his statement, and he wasn't actually saying that all rape victims would find it beneficial. Doesn't mean it's correct, no, but it is not automatically wrong either. And, whilst I understand that rape in general is a sensitive topic, given the situation it was kind-of hard to avoid. Plus, I don't see what you're expecting from Lantz here, he's admitted he has no peer-reviewed evidence, and I don't think it's reasonable to expect him to put effort into trying to defend an argument he has no interest in defending, especially when the argument would be better off being dropped outright.

Further, when you're discussing something like that, talking to friends is actually a reasonable way of obtaining evidence (although it is certainly not proof). After all, if any such study were to happen, it would essentially just be that, but in a larger and more-controlled manner.

I think that, perhaps, the whole topic should have been avoided, but once it has happened I don't think you can reasonably demand that Lantz retract a statement he considers to be true, and he admitted he does not have academic research to back it up.

[lantzblades]

Actually the bit about empowerment, which to say taking power over stuff that harmed you is something that is Google able. But yes, other than that there's no formal study about these things I can point to. Largely because as Mike says shit be awkward. I only have the experiences of people I know to reach my conclusions and while I shouldn't have snapped at Alice I feel as I said that those things are strictly private.

[Cherry Lover]

I'd like to point out that the "taking power over stuff that harmed you" thing is general and does not refer to BDSM specifically. It's just saying that not letting your past take control is a good thing.