The Battle of Giants: ORT, Primate Murder and fully incarnated Angra Mainju?

[Kat]

So, the poll is simple, whom of the three you consider to be strongest in direct battle? Disregard what Avenger says in HA, it is not obviously a competition who kills humans faster.

Poll without time limit, discussion on whom is stronger more than encouraged.

[Cherry Lover]

Isn't Angra actually really weak? He's good at killing humans, but aside from that he's basically just a normal person.

[Kat]

Ah, I should have clarified it further

The AM I mean is the fully incarnated god of evil that was meant to emerge at the end of HF.

[Cherry Lover]

I don't think that is what you'd have got, honestly. I don't think the Grail is capable of incarnating Angra Mainyu in that fashion. It's just capable of spewing out gunk and killing everything, or incarnating some human-killing monstrosity. Certainly whatever it spews isn't likely to be much good at fighting ORT or similar.

[Kat]

I don't think that is what you'd have got, honestly. I don't think the Grail is capable of incarnating Angra Mainyu in that fashion. It's just capable of spewing out gunk and killing everything, or incarnating some human-killing monstrosity. Certainly whatever it spews isn't likely to be much good at fighting ORT or similar.

If incarnated AM wouldn't be a grave threat to the world itself HF would lose much of its sense of urgency.

[Cherry Lover]

I never said it wasn't a threat. However, it's not at-all clear that it would be a threat to the entire world as opposed to just Fuyuki, and even if it is a threat to the entire world that doesn't mean it has to be particularly strong, just good at killing people.

Also, Shirou, Rin etc. have no idea what the real level of danger is. All they know is that AM being born = bad. Indeed, the fact that Zouken seems OK with the idea of it being born (I'm not sure his plan could have stopped it) suggests it's not going to just kill everything, although possibly it might kill everything but him....

[Kat]

But you know, it is inconsistent with how in UBW AM mud was supposed to wipe out at least 5.7 billion humans, and one would think that fully incarnated AM would be at least equally dangerous threat.

[Cherry Lover]

I'm not sure there's a huge difference between Gil wishing for the Grail to wipe out most of humanity and AM being fully incarnated, honestly. And, I'm pretty sure that both Primate Murder and ORT could wipe out all of humanity if they tried and were mobile enough....

[Kat]

With Primate Murder there is the issue it is under control of Altrouge, since no matter how not certainly nice average DAA is, they are not going to wipe the humanity because they would starve to death. What we know that Primate Murder > Crimson Moon from Kagetsu Tohya.

So in theory, there is nothing that prevents Primate Murder for being Aristoteles tier, and it might have Gaia's back up even under Altrouge's control, but ORT's Crystal Valley may negate the backup.

As for AM, Dark Sakura is nearly Counter Guardian tier (as in unnerfed CG), so we can assume incarnated AM might be stronger than a single CG, but does he have enough power to equal 7 CG that are needed to restrain Primate Murder when on a rampage?

[Cherry Lover]

Sure, but the fact that there is something stopping it from killing all of humanity has no bearing on its relative power. It might not want to destroy all of humanity, but it is still capable of it (at least if CGs don't get involved). It would probably be slower than AM, but killing humans is AM's primary purpose.

Also, I'm not sure an incarnated AM is much stronger than Dark Sakura. Dark Sakura is intelligent and has power of her own, on top of being able to direct AM's power. AM would just be a primordial destructive force. It is probably still pretty strong, but I don't think it would be close to 7 CGs.

[Kat]

Shadows that Sakura use are not the fully incarnated AM, so I always assume that they are weaker in power than him.

BTW, Primate Murder is considered faster than AM in the specific field of killing humans. Final outcome wise he is the same as AM, according to Avenger.

[Cherry Lover]

Sakura's shadows have no direct connection to AM. They're her personal familiars. AM merely provides her with more power to use them, and strengthens them somewhat. So, I see no reason to assume they are either weaker or stronger than AM himself would be.

[Kat]

I mean the shadow tentacle that she used prior to battle with Rin and when she was unconsciously nomming people.

[Cherry Lover]

Yeah, that is her natural magic. She could do that even without Angra.

The shadow itself is slightly different, though, that is sort-of a manifestation of Angra through Sakura. But, whilst it is strong against normal humans, I don't see any evidence it is on the level of ORT or similar. It also has strong anti-spirit properties due to Sakura's Imaginary Numbers affinity, hence why it is so good against servants (but, even so, I think it needed some help to take down Saber).

[Kat]

No, it is connection with Greater Holy Grail that makes it anti-Servant.