character Q and A

[SINIB]

I've just given him a big, glaring inconstancy.

He can't ask for information unless he knows what is wrong, and whoever is pointing out what is wrong can also obviously tell him how it is wrong....

Not necessarily, they may know that it's wrong, but not exactly how or where the source is.

In addition, I've seen the source for the GoB one linked multiple times here.

[lantzblades]

That's plain ignorance Bdoom, comic book fans deal with revisions all the time, so it's very relevant to the subject at hand. As to Gil's vault, extra is an alternate universe, therefore it does not count. As is apoc. Neither has any bearing on FSN Gilgamesh or his powers.

[SINIB]

That's plain ignorance Bdoom, comic book fans deal with revisions all the time, so it's very relevant to the subject at hand. As to Gil's vault, extra is an alternate universe, therefore it does not count. As is apoc. Neither has any bearing on FSN Gilgamesh or his powers.

Lantz, it's not relevant because we're not comic book fans(necessarily). We're fan's of a Visual Novel. Extra's servants are all canon, and it's the same gilgamesh as the one in stay night.

[lantzblades]

Ok, the only solution I see is to forcefully exodus Gilgamesh from the narrative of the reboot or seal or remove the gate as an ability. There, problem solved.

[SINIB]

Ok, the only solution I see is to forcefully exodus Gilgamesh from the narrative of the reboot or seal or remove the gate as an ability. There, problem solved.

OR you could modify the narrative to make it work, because isn't that what you said you were doing? Reworking it?

[lantzblades]

Reboots don't always include everything from previous versions. To be frank Gilgamesh is a nightmare of a power wanked canon sue at this point. There's no including him in the story because with every bullshit advantage he has the plot will always resolve the same way barring a deus ex machina. Thus for the sake of the overall story he's dead and stays that way. A shame because character wise he's a good element but so it goes.

[Cherry Lover]

Well, Gil is useable, but he's basically only beatable through his own stupidity. I can see Toshi taking him down in the context of a Grail War (because Gil would treat him with contempt), but defeating him when he's wary of what you can do is virtually impossible, yes.

[lantzblades]

He's unbeatable given all of Nasu's power ups at this point, without taking away the gate period he's unusable as far as I can see.

[KAIZA]

And yet Saber beat him in Fate. And Shirou beat him in UBW. And he got eaten in HF.

Just because Nasu clarified about his abilities and the Gate, it doesn't make him unbeatable. Gil is powerful, yes, but his ego is even more powerful, and thus he can be outsmarted and beaten just fine.

That's usually how it goes with these kinds of characters: not beaten through sheer strength alone, but through wits and ingenuity.

[lantzblades]

Yeah, all of that is basically invalid as of the current time. His power boosts make him unbeatable by everything but the shadow at this point. As such there's no way to have him in the story without a massive depowering. He was already a problem for the original Satoshi, depowering Satoshi and then powering up Gilgamesh makes it pointless to include Gilgamesh because any fight will simply result in the same outcome no matter what.

[KAIZA]

Except...Gil wasn't powered up. We just got an explanation of his powers. That's it. It's the same ol' Gil as in Fate. He is as OP now as he was then. Hell, Ea alone shows how powerful he is when fighting seriously...and that's the point. He rarely does so. That's the exploit. That's his "de-powering", which is canon.

So, no, you don't have to de-power him.

[lantzblades]

Actually he was, those explanations invalidate Avalon, Excalibur, the actually ability for ubw to be a trump card (it's not anymore when you do the math) and even Gilgamesh's fortitude. He went from being powerful but beatable to unkillable because there's no longer a way to take advantage of his ego.

[Cherry Lover]

In what way do the explanations given invalidate any of those things?

[lantzblades]

He has items that are the same as Avalon and Excalibur, not copies or originals but items that produce the same effects as powerfully if not more so, having an unlimited number of swords is UBW's one advantage over the gate but that doesn't matter because if Gilgamesh is disarmed the weapons just return to the gate instantly so it can't beat Gilgamesh even conceptually anymore.and apparent CCC added some new crap about his endurance and crap so he's even tougher. And new super phantasms as well. So nothing works anymore. Look I know the ignorant people who never paid attention missed this but in the original version Satoshi had a hell of a time winning a fight. A rebooted Satoshi cannot win and even if Archer, Shirou or Saber could still win it's pointless. That means anytime Gilgamesh is a threat Satoshi will have to be saved by someone, last I checked heroes who are saved by their parents aren't good protagonists even slightly.

[KAIZA]

Actually he was, those explanations invalidate Avalon, Excalibur, the actually ability for ubw to be a trump card (it's not anymore when you do the math) and even Gilgamesh's fortitude. He went from being powerful but beatable to unkillable because there's no longer a way to take advantage of his ego.

I think you're misunderstanding something a bit here. Those explanations don't really change much. We already knew Gil was powerful enough to steamroll the competition and win the Grail War by himself. Problem is, if Gil doesn't think you're worthy of his awesomeness, he's not going to fight you at full power. At all. The only exception was in UBW, when Shirou got the upper hand, and Gil was pretty much in a losing situation. And by the time he decided to pull Ea, it was too late.

The only time we see him going all out was against Iskander in Zero. Yes, Gil is pretty much unstoppable if we take everything he has into account. But his ego means that he will almost never fight at full power, so all those skills are a moot point unless he deems his opponent worthy.

Which, given what you've mentioned about Gil and Toshi's relationship, is pretty much guaranteed not too happen.

He has items that are the same as Avalon and Excalibur, not copies or originals but items that produce the same effects as powerfully if not more so, having an unlimited number of swords is UBW's one advantage over the gate but that doesn't matter because if Gilgamesh is disarmed the weapons just return to the gate instantly so it can't beat Gilgamesh even conceptually anymore.and apparent CCC added some new crap about his endurance and crap so he's even tougher. And new super phantasms as well. So nothing works anymore. Look I know the ignorant people who never paid attention missed this but in the original version Satoshi had a hell of a time winning a fight. A rebooted Satoshi cannot win and even if Archer, Shirou or Saber could still win it's pointless. That means anytime Gilgamesh is a threat Satoshi will have to be saved by someone, last I checked heroes who are saved by their parents aren't good protagonists even slightly.

Again, only uses stuff if he deems it worthy. To the point where he only fired four weapons at Caster's giant monster, after Tokiomi begged him to do so. And then refused to get the weapons back because they had been "soiled" by being used on the creature.

And UBW, in theory, doesn't get the weapons back, but produces them fast enough that he can outgun GoB. Again, that's how Shirou beats Gil in UBW.

And again, his endurance and powers are not new. We already now he's THE strongest Servant. His ego still remains as his fatal flaw.

It's true that completely invincible villains are boring. Which is why good OP villains tend to have glaring flaws which can be exploited by the heroes to outsmart them. Gil's is his ego. Learn to use that well, and you can make interesting Gil fights.