Cross Effects: Rebirth (2.0) Discussion Page (OOC).

[Cherry Lover]

He shouldn't have EX Servant stats. In everything. Nor should he have all these abilities that don't make sense with canon. And he certainly wasn't approved with those stats. This is very similar to what lantz pulled, and it's not good at all.

To be fair, Lorelei shouldn't have servant-level A-rank magic either, and the GM allowed that through.

Also, whilst the very first version of the sheet didn't specify the scale, the statement that it was on the servant scale was added only few minutes later, so I can't imagine it was approved on the basis of a misconception. The EX-rank stuff was added a bit later, though, so I'd have to check when he was approved to see if that was added afterwards.

*Edit* Yeah, it seems like the EX-rank stuff was edited in afterwards. I suspect that that is a genuine oversight on Kuro's part rather than any attempt to mislead us, though.

[Umbra of Chaos]

He shouldn't have EX Servant stats. In everything. Nor should he have all these abilities that don't make sense with canon. And he certainly wasn't approved with those stats. This is very similar to what lantz pulled, and it's not good at all.

To be fair, Lorelei shouldn't have servant-level A-rank magic either, and the GM allowed that through.

Why not? Lorelei is basically blasting people with extremely powerful basic spells. The extremely powerful is what makes it A rank.

[Alice]

It's more about it being EX rank (the scale was just a side note). The sheet wasn't approved with him having EX ranked Servant stats. It's a matter of realism. There's taking liberties and maybe stretching it a bit (Lorelei's magic rank would be this category), and then there's taking so many liberties and overpowering so much that suspension of disbelief is completely and utterly shattered (this is what lantz did regularly. Minato's sheet is looking to fall under this).

What makes it worse in this case is all this other stuff was there was never told to the GM. Whether Minato would have been approved with his full sheet or not is debatable, and caveats likely would have been applied if it was. There's a difference between having a few stats be dubious and having the whole sheet be dubious. That's the key difference here.

[Cherry Lover]

He shouldn't have EX Servant stats. In everything. Nor should he have all these abilities that don't make sense with canon. And he certainly wasn't approved with those stats. This is very similar to what lantz pulled, and it's not good at all.

To be fair, Lorelei shouldn't have servant-level A-rank magic either, and the GM allowed that through.

Why not? Lorelei is basically blasting people with extremely powerful basic spells. The extremely powerful is what makes it A rank.

A-rank human, perhaps. A-rank servant means high-tier Age of the Gods magic, the sort that has only been possessed by a handful of people throughout history. Nasu made it perfectly clear that modern humans aren't on the level of ancient ones in terms of magic, I don't recall him saying "but Lorelei is an exception".

It's more about it being EX rank (the scale was just a side note). The sheet wasn't approved with him having EX ranked Servant stats. It's a matter of realism. There's taking liberties and maybe stretching it a bit (Lorelei's magic rank would be this category), and then there's taking so many liberties and overpowering so much that suspension of disbelief is completely and utterly shattered (this is what lantz did regularly. Minato's sheet is looking to fall under this).

Lorelei's magic rank is more than "stretching it a bit", it is utterly ludicrous. And, the rest of her stats are pretty absurd as well. True, they're not as ridiculous as Minato being EX-rated for everything (although that might have been using EX in the sense of "we don't know"), but they're still pretty bad.

What makes it worse in this case is all this other stuff was there was never told to the GM. Whether Minato would have been approved with his full sheet or not is debatable, and caveats likely would have been applied if it was. There's a difference between having a few stats be dubious and having the whole sheet be dubious. That's the key difference here.

Yeah, I agree that adding the EX-rank stuff after approval was not remotely acceptable. The initial stats were approved, though, and those are still servant-level.

[Umbra of Chaos]

She isn't. In a battle of magic Medea vaporizes any modern magus. There is more to magic then the amount of firepower you have. Lorelei just has enough to blast everything to smithereens. Her firepower is what gets her A rank. She blows shit up good. There is also the thing where her spells approach True Magic.

[Cherry Lover]

She isn't. In a battle of magic Medea vaporizes any modern magus. There is more to magic then the amount of firepower you have. Lorelei just has enough to blast everything to smithereens. Her firepower is what gets her A rank. She blows shit up good. There is also the thing where her spells approach True Magic.

But, it's not "prana level", it's "Magical Ability". If Medea would vaporise her, then she's not rank-A servant-level Magical Ability. And, even if you're going solely for the amount of prana she possesses and can use, I still can't imagine that she's servant rank A. Someone like Sakura or Rin (who are exceptional for modern magi) doesn't even reach servant levels, and servants like Saber have exceptional magical capacity and output.

And, honestly, I don't think even True Magic is servant rank A, because I would expect a servant of that rank to be able to do multiple things that we would call "True Magic".

[Umbra of Chaos]

It's not prana level. It's the amount of damage. Lorelei is a goddamn rocket launcher, but Medea can fire faster and has more flexibility with her spells. And True Magic would be A at least considering that Zel beat CM with the Second, and I doubt any magus with A rank magic could do that.

[Brahmastra]

And, honestly, I don't think even True Magic is servant rank A, because I would expect a servant of that rank to be able to do multiple things that we would call "True Magic".

Actually True Magic would be EX, probably on the servant scale, because what you can do with it is ludicrous and completely outside the rules of the game to begin with.

Lets just put the examples out there:

Zelretch defeated one of the top 2-1 beings in the entire setting, someone who could literally destroy all life on earth with 5 limbs tied behind his back, using the Second Magic.

The Grail, which can reach the root and call long-dead heroes out of the universe's storage room for cool people, is a tiny, tiny bit of the Third Magic.

Aoko can literally reverse someone's death using timey-wimey shit and manipulates so much power in the process that Touko is afraid that reality can't handle it.

Lorelei approaches this level of power with kiddy-grade Magecraft. Let that process through your head for just a moment.

A-rank human, perhaps. A-rank servant means high-tier Age of the Gods magic, the sort that has only been possessed by a handful of people throughout history. Nasu made it perfectly clear that modern humans aren't on the level of ancient ones in terms of magic, I don't recall him saying "but Lorelei is an exception".

Age of Gods Magecraft isn't supreme, however, we've seen that already. Zero Caster's Noble Phantasm, which is literally just a strong spellbook, can lolnope Age of Gods Magecraft by overpowering it with more prana.

Prana < More Prana is a universal rule, whether not you got old cool shit or not doesn't make it different.

Also someone can easily have A-rank Servant Magecraft in canon and not have it be "AoG Speshul" shit. Avicebron has B-rank Magecraft (Numerology). I repeat, a 12th century Magus can almost reach the same level as "high-tier AoG Magecraft". And that's without mentioning that he can build Adam, a Golem that would steamroll 3 Medeas.

Anyway I'm not having this stupid argument again. You can believe what you will but it's not influencing my sheet.

[Cherry Lover]

Anyway I'm not having this stupid argument again. You can believe what you will but it's not influencing my sheet.

Sure, but it's damn hypocritical for you to be criticising Kuro's stats when you have made Lorelei so ludicrously OP.

[Brahmastra]

Sure, but it's damn hypocritical for you to be criticising Kuro's stats when you have made Lorelei so ludicrously OP.

Minus the part where Lorelei's powerlevels are about as accurate as you can make them based on what little we know of her. And I'm not gonna hear that from someone who believes Sakura honestly stands an an astronomical chance against Ciel.

Lorelei fights DAA, AKA the 27 Scariest as all fuck people still around, when they're at their strongest and wins without issue. Those same DAA are so strong that most of them can only be defeated by Excalibur/Gae Bolg tier bullshit. And she does this for sport.

Also I really don't particularly criticize the stats. His sheet as a whole is a mess of bullshit with more faults than a 5$ Romanian alleyway hooker with crabs, and the stats are just the tip of the really large iceberg there.

[Cherry Lover]

Minus the part where Lorelei's powerlevels are about as accurate as you can make them based on what little we know of her.

No, they really aren't.

And I'm not gonna hear that from someone who believes Sakura honestly stands an an astronomical chance against Ciel.

I said she would win if she summoned Rider, which makes sense. I'm pretty sure that I said that I couldn't see how she could win otherwise.

[Umbra of Chaos]

I don't really care about the stats. I care about how Kuro's skills makes no sense considering P3. I'm not even getting into the fact that he can perform a miracle once per day, but the Shadow Vassal fits nowhere in P3's canon. Larger shadows attract other shadows. Then they merge into bigger shadows that attract more shadows. Only shadows can control shadows. Minato is not a shadow, and if he only got the powers once he made it to Nexus I have no clue when he even got the Reaper. IIRC it is only in Tartarus so Minato would never get the chance to control it in the first place.

[Brahmastra]

No, they really aren't.

State your fucking counterargument instead of going "nuh uh I said so".

[Knick]

Magical ability is an impossible thing to judge with servant stats.

Because Emiya has a magecraft skill and all it says he has basic understanding of fundemental magecraft. It does not go to the same scale as physical stats, mana and luck.

The reason Medea is better then any modern magus is because her AoG magecraft with HSDW has a impossibly high affinity vs modern shit, it has more mystery and simply wins out because of it. Also she can deconstruct A-rank spells but I would assume that lends itself to the previous point.

Saying something has "A+ Servant rank magical ability" is completely hollow as shit. Because that could mean nothing. In a battle of magecraft it is about affinity and mystery rather then power.

Also I would just put Lorelei at A-rank just to shut up concern about it. It still really fucking high.

[Cherry Lover]

No, they really aren't.

State your fucking counterargument instead of going "nuh uh I said so".

I already made my argument, and your response was "I'm not having this stupid argument again"....

Magical ability is an impossible thing to judge with servant stats.

Because Emiya has a magecraft skill and all it says he has basic understanding of fundemental magecraft.

The reason Medea is better then any modern magus is because her AoG magecraft with HSDW has a impossibly high affinity vs modern shit, it has more mystery and simply wins out because of it. Also she can deconstruct A-rank spells but I would assume that lends itself to the previous point.

Saying something has "A+ Servant rank magical ability" is completely hollow as shit. Because that could mean nothing. In a battle of magecraft it is about affinity and mystery rather then power.

Well, I interpret it as "mortal standard means something that a modern magus could be expected to reach, whereas servant standard is something that is only really possible for supernatural beings like servants". Hence why I feel that Lorelei having such a high rank is rather absurd. Possibly it is a matter of the definition being poor, but I certainly don't think Lorelei is amongst the most powerful magic users ever to exist, even if she is clearly the most powerful alive now.

For example, I put Sakura's Magical Energy stat at A++ mortal (or something like that), even though she has a connection that means she likely has a higher prana supply rate than any modern magus (probably even Lorelei). Of course, she can't use it anything like as effectively (and can't use as much in one go), but her actual mana supply is exceptional.