Cross Effects: Rebirth (2.0) Discussion Page (OOC).

[Cherry Lover]

I have.

Whilst Shirou is not initially very good at reinforcement, that is because of a lack of training. When he is able to learn to do things better, he becomes far more capable. Every other form of magic, Shirou sucks at, even as Archer, but reinforcement he has the potential to do well.

iirc under magecraft for Archer's profile it says he was shitty at it even while he was alive. He got better once he became a CG.

Edit: didn't mean to doublepost.

That makes no sense, though. He is still shit at other forms of magic, even as a CG. Why would Reinforcement be an exception?

And, I don't remember seeing that at all....

[YOLF]

Uh, couple of things I thought to say about Kiyoshi's sheet. You... contradict yourself a few times there, you know?

First of all, Sakura's original eye color was blue/aquamarine, like Rin's. Not Green.

Second, you call Kiyoshi an "average magus", but he clearly is not. Not only does he have two elemental affinities, one of which is very rare, you describe him as having the potential to excel at Reinforcement, and he can already self-reinforce at his age. I'm not sure you realize how much of a big deal self-reinforcement actually is, but it's the peak of basic magecraft. Rin can do it because she is a goddamn genius!

Also, allow me to clear one further thing up. Shirou does not "excel at Reinforcement". The only thing he is good at is Projection, and that is because of UBW and his circuits being tailored specifically for it. He is also good at Alteration and Reinforcement on weapons because of his affinity.

Sure, he might be able to do Reinforcement somewhat well, but he by no means EXCELS at it compared to someone like Rin. Or he's not supposed to, anyways. EMIYA is a different case. It's possible Shirou is able to self-reinforce efficiently and quite well if he does something like think of himself as a sword or do it subconsciously (this in particular actually seems to happen in FSN a few times, but it's again in relation to the first point, or so I speculate).

But he does not excel at Reinforcement in normal terms.



POST-EDIT: I only now realized everyone else already mentioned these points, but I'm posting this anyways because I already spent the time writing it to explain.

[Knick]

Sakura's genetic code was altered by Zolken.

It is a possible thing, in fact the human genome is constantly changed by retroviruses. New squences are added all the time, infact a rather large chunk of the human genome are endogonus retroviruses.

With magecraft it is not at all implausible that the genetic code that would be passed was changed to the extent that it did. In fact it would be highly likely that Zolken do so in order to make her children more accepting of matou magecraft.

[Cherry Lover]

First of all, Sakura's original eye color was blue/aquamarine, like Rin's. Not Green.

Aquamarine is blue/green. I always thought Rin's eyes looked more green than blue, personally. Anyway, I've changed it to "aquamarine" now.

Second, you call Kiyoshi an "average magus", but he clearly is not.

He's average in general. He lacks much in the way of circuits, he's just very good at reinforcement.

Not only does he have two elemental affinities, one of which is very rare, you describe him as having the potential to excel at Reinforcement, and he can already self-reinforce at his age. I'm not sure you realize how much of a big deal self-reinforcement actually is, but it's the peak of basic magecraft. Rin can do it because she is a goddamn genius!

Any magus can self-reinforce. Doing it safely is the difficult bit. It's not a matter of number of circuits or similar, it's just a matter of training.

And, I think most magi are capable of self-reinforcement to a reasonable extent at least. I don't think Rin is quite that exceptional.

Also, allow me to clear one further thing up. Shirou does not "excel at Reinforcement". The only thing he is good at is Projection, and that is because of UBW and his circuits being tailored specifically for it. He is also good at Alteration and Reinforcement on weapons because of his affinity.

Sure, he might be able to do Reinforcement somewhat well, but he by no means EXCELS at it compared to someone like Rin. Or he's not supposed to, anyways. EMIYA is a different case. It's possible Shirou is able to self-reinforce efficiently and quite well if he does something like think of himself as a sword or do it subconsciously (this in particular actually seems to happen in FSN a few times, but it's again in relation to the first point, or so I speculate).

But he does not excel at Reinforcement in normal terms.

He may not excel at it, but he is certainly quite good at it, especially relative to other skills.

Sakura's genetic code was altered by Zolken.

It is a possible thing, in fact the human genome is constantly changed by retroviruses. New squences are added all the time, infact a rather large chunk of the human genome are endogonus retroviruses.

With magecraft it is not at all implausible that the genetic code that would be passed was changed to the extent that it did. In fact it would be highly likely that Zolken do so in order to make her children more accepting of matou magecraft.

You can change it a little, but you can't change it to that extent in a living person and have them still be a living person. It makes no sense. There is also no evidence that he actually did that, or that he would have altered her eggs even if he did (eggs do not have a normal genetic code).

[Umbra of Chaos]

That makes no sense, though. He is still shit at other forms of magic, even as a CG. Why would Reinforcement be an exception?

And, I don't remember seeing that at all....

Thaumaturgy: C-
During his life time, the sorceries learned by Emiya are unremarkable. Before becoming a Heroic Spirit, even “reinforcement” was quite difficult. However, the “projection” sorcery he wields is quite special, as it is able to duplicate weapons, including all the components, to near perfection. In addition, during duplication, he can even read the wielder’s skills, which allows him to gain all kinds of Noble Phantasms and combat skills.
During his life time, Emiya used the preliminary step of projection – “structural analysis”, to find the location of an item’s fault and proceed with repair.

I worded that poorly. I meant that even Reinforcement was difficult for him while he was alive. It was not something he excelled in.

[Brahmastra]

Any magus can self-reinforce. Doing it safely is the difficult bit. It's not a matter of number of circuits or similar, it's just a matter of training.

And, I think most magi are capable of self-reinforcement to a reasonable extent at least. I don't think Rin is quite that exceptional.

Minus the part where Rin can become a potential top 100 in all of the Association's history if you give her a few decades (though that is admittedly primarily due to Zelretch shenanigans)

Rin is specifically a super-rare genius. She can do it because she's a super-rare genius. Shirou can't do it because he's not a super-rare genius.

[Gray]

I thought shirou's reinforcing worked by basically making a few swords pop up in his body and he made those strong as he could. That's why rider kicking him in the gut (or was it being kicked down a building) caused him basically to accidentally impale himself. His reinforcement is kind of a weird extension of his projection if you look at it that way as he's just projection some strong swords under his skin.

[Brahmastra]

I thought shirou's reinforcing worked by basically making a few swords pop up in his body and he made those strong as he could. That's why rider kicking him in the gut (or was it being kicked down a building) caused him basically to accidentally impale himself. His reinforcement is kind of a weird extension of his projection if you look at it that way as he's just projection some strong swords under his skin.

Fanon.

[Cherry Lover]

Any magus can self-reinforce. Doing it safely is the difficult bit. It's not a matter of number of circuits or similar, it's just a matter of training.

And, I think most magi are capable of self-reinforcement to a reasonable extent at least. I don't think Rin is quite that exceptional.

Minus the part where Rin can become a potential top 100 in all of the Association's history if you give her a few decades (though that is admittedly primarily due to Zelretch shenanigans)

Rin is specifically a super-rare genius. She can do it because she's a super-rare genius. Shirou can't do it because he's not a super-rare genius.

No, Rin is an exceptional magus because of her circuit count. That has nothing to do with the ability to learn how to self-reinforce. You do not need a massive amount of circuits to do that.

I'm not saying Rin is stupid or anything like that, but if she can learn to do it by the age of 17, other magi can learn to do it as well.

I thought shirou's reinforcing worked by basically making a few swords pop up in his body and he made those strong as he could. That's why rider kicking him in the gut (or was it being kicked down a building) caused him basically to accidentally impale himself. His reinforcement is kind of a weird extension of his projection if you look at it that way as he's just projection some strong swords under his skin.

Fanon.

But, Shirou does possess the ability to self-reinforce. He demonstrates it multiple times in the VN (doing things like running faster, for example). So, it obviously can't be as difficult as you're making out.

[Umbra of Chaos]

Thaumaturgy: C-
During his life time, the sorceries learned by Emiya are unremarkable. Before becoming a Heroic Spirit, even “reinforcement” was quite difficult. However, the “projection” sorcery he wields is quite special, as it is able to duplicate weapons, including all the components, to near perfection. In addition, during duplication, he can even read the wielder’s skills, which allows him to gain all kinds of Noble Phantasms and combat skills.
During his life time, Emiya used the preliminary step of projection – “structural analysis”, to find the location of an item’s fault and proceed with repair.

Even Reinforcement was difficult for him while he was alive. It was not something he excelled in.

[Brahmastra]

40 Circuits isn't even that special. Self-reinforcement has nothing to do with Circuit count, yes, because it's reliant on the user being an unparalleled genius.

"anyone can self-reinforce, even if it kills them" is a stupid and contradicting statement, because being able to self-reinforce implies that you can actually successfully do it.

[Cherry Lover]

Thaumaturgy: C-
During his life time, the sorceries learned by Emiya are unremarkable. Before becoming a Heroic Spirit, even “reinforcement” was quite difficult. However, the “projection” sorcery he wields is quite special, as it is able to duplicate weapons, including all the components, to near perfection. In addition, during duplication, he can even read the wielder’s skills, which allows him to gain all kinds of Noble Phantasms and combat skills.
During his life time, Emiya used the preliminary step of projection – “structural analysis”, to find the location of an item’s fault and proceed with repair.

Even Reinforcement was difficult for him while he was alive. It was not something he excelled in.

You can repeat that as many times as you like, it doesn't change the fact that Shirou does use self-reinforcement.

40 Circuits isn't even that special. Self-reinforcement has nothing to do with Circuit count, yes, because it's reliant on the user being an unparalleled genius.

"anyone can self-reinforce, even if it kills them" is a stupid and contradicting statement, because being able to self-reinforce implies that you can actually successfully do it.

Rin's circuit count and quality is absolutely special. Tokiomi makes that abundantly clear when he's talking about her and Sakura. Rin is definitely a clever person, but it is quite simply not true that she is far more competent than an average magus of a similar experience level would be. If Rin can self-reinforce safely at her age, then other magi also can.

Unless you can find actual evidence to support your blind assertions, please stop making them.

[Knick]

You can change it a little, but you can't change it to that extent in a living person and have them still be a living person. It makes no sense. There is also no evidence that he actually did that, or that he would have altered her eggs even if he did (eggs do not have a normal genetic code).

1) Eggs DO have a normal genetic code, actually they only have half a genetic code. It is quite normal outside of that really. So please, stop talking like you understand things.

2) Changing of genetic code can be done, it is difficult but can be done. The main difficulty is targeting the exact location you want to insert 3 new sets of base pairs. It is a high risk thing to do in large numbers because an change to an unwanted area can turn of or turn on the transcription of genes. It is not something that can be safely done by modern medicine in large numbers, but designer babies is a worry for a reason, we are approaching that point.

3) Zolken is a magus, a rather good one at that. Magecraft is capable of doing things that science is theoretically capable of doing but most of the time more safely and with more ease. Also it is very, very likely that he altered everything with magecraft, mainly considering her original point of her existence was to make an heir and then become Zolken's new host, why the fuck would he want to stunt her kid's magecraft by forcing an element change, better to have it passed on genetically.

4) said in the VN somewhere that her code was changed, so please stop.

[Lycodrake]

Just to clarify, Nachos: I'm just wanting to be sure that impaling - other than the sort that Gabriel and Folly, Law and Moedred have participated in - has happened or not happened.

[Brahmastra]

Unless you can find actual evidence to support your blind assertions, please stop making them.

I tried saving your sheet from being full of shitty fanon and this is what I get. Good job Mike, you deserve a slow clap.