Cross Effects: Rebirth (2.0) Discussion Page (OOC).

[YOLF]

He's average in general. He lacks much in the way of circuits, he's just very good at reinforcement.

Lacking much in the way of circuits does not discount effective ability due to skill. And Circuit Count, while important for being an "above average magus", is not all, you realize, if a big part of it. Kiyoshi's skill and talents already mark him as quite amazing.

Also, again, the matter of his two elements.

Any magus can self-reinforce. Doing it safely is the difficult bit. It's not a matter of number of circuits or similar, it's just a matter of training.

And, I think most magi are capable of self-reinforcement to a reasonable extent at least. I don't think Rin is quite that exceptional.

I never said most magi weren't capable of self-reinforcement, but it's still a very dangerous skill, also also one that represents the pinnacle of basic magecraft. The fact that Rin can self-reinforce like she does is remarkable. If Kiyoshi can do it at the age of 11, I'm sorry, but he is a genius at it. You need to be extremely skilled to self-reinforce properly.

He may not excel at it, but he is certainly quite good at it, especially relative to other skills.

He still does not "excel" at it.

[Knick]

You can repeat that as many times as you like, it doesn't change the fact that Shirou does use self-reinforcement.

Bairly.

No reason for his son to suddenly have super capability at it.

Because I have learned to spit 10 feet does not mean my kid will be born with a natural ability to do so.

[Cherry Lover]

1) Eggs DO have a normal genetic code, actually they only have half a genetic code. It is quite normal outside of that really. So please, stop talking like you understand things.

I understand Biology perfectly well, stop being so damn patronising.

My point is that an egg cannot have "Matou genetics" even more than a cell can. It makes no damn sense. Plus, eggs are formed before birth.

2) Changing of genetic code can be done, it is difficult but can be done. The main difficulty is targeting the exact location you want to insert 3 new sets of base pairs. It is a high risk thing to do in large numbers because an change to an unwanted area can turn of or turn on the transcription of genes. It is not something that can be safely done by modern medicine in large numbers, but designer babies is a worry for a reason, we are approaching that point.

Changing it before birth maybe, but not changing it in an adult to the extent that you're suggesting.

3) Zolken is a magus, a rather good one at that. Magecraft is capable of doing things that science is theoretically capable of doing but most of the time more safely and with more ease. Also it is very, very likely that he altered everything with magecraft, mainly considering her original point of her existence was to make an heir and then become Zolken's new host, why the fuck would he want to stunt her kid's magecraft by forcing an element change, better to have it passed on genetically.

It makes no damn sense, and I am not changing it. I like my characters how they are, thank you very much.

4) said in the VN somewhere that her code was changed, so please stop.

Where?

Lacking much in the way of circuits does not discount effective ability due to skill. And Circuit Count, while important for being an "above average magus", is not all, you realize, if a big part of it. Kiyoshi's skill and talents already mark him as quite amazing.

He has a lot of potential, but he is not a good magus.

I never said most magi weren't capable of self-reinforcement, but it's still a very dangerous skill, also also one that represents the pinnacle of basic magecraft. The fact that Rin can self-reinforce like she does is remarkable. If Kiyoshi can do it at the age of 11, I'm sorry, but he is a genius at it. You need to be extremely skilled to self-reinforce properly.

I never said he could do it properly. Doing it would be very dangerous for him, that's why his parents don't like him doing it.

[YOLF]

Do you mean magus in the "follows magus mindset" sense or in the purely "talent and ability at magecraft" sense? Because he absolutely is not average if you take into account the former, what he can currently do nonwithstanding.

And why would you even say he is capable of self-reinforcement if he can't do it properly? Being capable at something implies not doing it wrong, which in this case implies not hurting yourself doing it.


All I was taking exception to was you calling him "an average magus" based on what he can do, which devolved into this argument of definitions and FSN facts. If I sound adversarial I apologize, just trying to make things clear and be sure that everyone has the correct idea about things.

[Cherry Lover]

Do you mean magus in the "follows magus mindset" sense or in the purely "talent and ability at magecraft" sense? Because he absolutely is not average if you take into account the former, what he can currently do nonwithstanding.

Well, he doesn't have a magus mindset at all. In terms of his talent and ability, he is generally not good, he is just good at certain aspects.

And why would you even say he is capable of self-reinforcement if he can't do it properly? Being capable at something implies not doing it wrong, which in this case implies not hurting yourself doing it.

Well, he can self-reinforce, there's just a high chance of him hurting himself in the process, especially if he does it too much. Basically, he's learning.

[Knick]

"Why do you ask that now?
Matou Sakura's body was tampered with many years ago. The changes were so extensive that even her hair and eye colors no longer reflect her heritage. This did not start recently."

"Well, it seems it was never intended to kill her as it's doing now.
It seems Matou Zouken did not intend to use Matou Sakura in this war. She is not adjusted to fighting. I would assume she was treated that way because unexpected conditions were met."

Considering Zolken wanted her as a future vessel and to produce a suitable heir for the Matou to fight in the next war it is incredibly likely that the alterations to her body where genetic and not simply cosmetic, in order to insure the whole reason she was adopted and produce a heir of great potential.

Also, still don't get why her son can use her Element, Element's are generally unique to the person, and while families can be more likely to have specific one like the Aozaki's know for having wind element special elements, like being an average one or unique traits such as multiple elements are not passed on.

And if you say it is a crest then do know that implies Sakura converted her own circuits into a crest and passed them on, a very dangerous process even for blood related children.

[YOLF]

Well, he doesn't have a magus mindset at all. In terms of his talent and ability, he is generally not good, he is just good at certain aspects.

And what I've been trying to say is, by Nasuverse standards, even if he has an average circuit count, he is already remarkable for his skill at reinforcement and some of his natural ability as a user of magecraft. Namely, his two elements.

Well, he can self-reinforce, there's just a high chance of him hurting himself in the process, especially if he does it too much. Basically, he's learning.

The fact he can do it at all and not hurt himself even only some times is already supposed to incredible.

[Gray]

You mentioned he has some capability with projection I understand his dad had the tailor made circuits for that so I can let that slide (but on the other hand I believe Nasuverse magical capabilities are kind of randomized as I don't exactly see Rin and Sakura being to similar to Tokiomi beyond the direct crest inherited stuff) so he may have some better affinity that most magi I do have to wonder one thing.
Shirou's projection is only useful because he has the data perfectly stored in his soul so he can make detailed copies. Other people even if they are good at the reproduction process of projection don't exactly have the blueprints detailed enough to make anything of quality. Everything projected would honestly be up to the quality of what Shirou makes in his shed. Interesting as a magical concept with how long they last but all functionally useless in their original task beyond superficial appearance. So Mike what's the point of the projection skill?
Projection is actually a common skill for mages so the basic kind can go without saying I believe but the specialness of Shirou's type is exclusive to his soul and circuits.

[Cherry Lover]

"Why do you ask that now?
Matou Sakura's body was tampered with many years ago. The changes were so extensive that even her hair and eye colors no longer reflect her heritage. This did not start recently."

"Well, it seems it was never intended to kill her as it's doing now.
It seems Matou Zouken did not intend to use Matou Sakura in this war. She is not adjusted to fighting. I would assume she was treated that way because unexpected conditions were met."

Considering Zolken wanted her as a future vessel and to produce a suitable heir for the Matou to fight in the next war it is incredibly likely that the alterations to her body where genetic and not simply cosmetic, in order to insure the whole reason she was adopted and produce a heir of great potential.

It's pretty clear he did alter her somehow, but I don't think he necessarily needed her to be a Matou genetically to use her for breeding, and I don't see how he could alter her genetics in that manner. You also can't "gradually" change someone's genes like that, the fact that it's a gradual change implies some weird Nasu biology.

Your logic is that he used his worms to secrete a virus (which is something that was not even known about when he was making the things) in order to alter her genes (which were also not known about) in a manner that we cannot even do now that did a perfect job of turning her into a Matou (which isn't even a defined concept) without any significant side-effects by sheer chance.

I find it more likely that he did something magical to her that would affect her body, but not her genetic make-up.

Also, still don't get why her son can use her Element, Element's are generally unique to the person, and while families can be more likely to have specific one like the Aozaki's know for having wind element special elements, like being an average one or unique traits such as multiple elements are not passed on.

Well, he can't use it much. His main element is ether.

And if you say it is a crest then do know that implies Sakura converted her own circuits into a crest and passed them on, a very dangerous process even for blood related children.

Erm, what? It's the standard way of making a crest.

You mentioned he has some capability with projection I understand his dad had the tailor made circuits for that so I can let that slide (but on the other hand I believe Nasuverse magical capabilities are kind of randomized as I don't exactly see Rin and Sakura being to similar to Tokiomi beyond the direct crest inherited stuff) so he may have some better affinity that most magi I do have to wonder one thing.
Shirou's projection is only useful because he has the data perfectly stored in his soul so he can make detailed copies. Other people even if they are good at the reproduction process of projection don't exactly have the blueprints detailed enough to make anything of quality. Everything projected would honestly be up to the quality of what Shirou makes in his shed. Interesting as a magical concept with how long they last but all functionally useless in their original task beyond superficial appearance. So Mike what's the point of the projection skill?
Projection is actually a common skill for mages so the basic kind can go without saying I believe but the specialness of Shirou's type is exclusive to his soul and circuits.

His projection is only the standard magical form, which is most likely useless. What he is best at is creating ether clumps and manipulating those.

[Knick]

And what I've been trying to say is, by Nasuverse standards, even if he has an average circuit count, he is already remarkable for his skill at reinforcement and some of his natural ability as a user of magecraft. Namely, his two elements.

Would be more acceptable if he was like in his 20s, but he is fucking 11. God, that is insane.

His projection is only the standard magical form, which is most likely useless. What he is best at is creating ether clumps and manipulating those.

Ether lump [Others]
Ether, the Fifth Imaginary Substance as coined by the Association. It is a necessary medium that gives shape by mixing with the Four Elements.
It is shapeless, but it is a critical element in the functioning of magecraft.
Ether is bound to become one of Earth, Water, Fire and Wind, but in the hands of a novice, it would fail to become one of the Four Elements and materialize. This is ether lump.
Ether lump is completely useless. In some sense, creating ether lump is analogous to creating "Nothingness". Looking at it from this perspective makes it sound like "True Magic" In fact, ether lump is originally the First Magic's ----------

Ether lumps, or clumps, are useless for magi. There is something about them being linked to the 1st but for the love of god if you say anything about that you deserve to be smacked.

[Cherry Lover]

And what I've been trying to say is, by Nasuverse standards, even if he has an average circuit count, he is already remarkable for his skill at reinforcement and some of his natural ability as a user of magecraft. Namely, his two elements.

Would be more acceptable if he was like in his 20s, but he is fucking 11. God, that is insane.

He's not anything like as strong as you're making out. He's just strong enough to be capable of not instantly dying to a stiff breeze....

And what I've been trying to say is, by Nasuverse standards, even if he has an average circuit count, he is already remarkable for his skill at reinforcement and some of his natural ability as a user of magecraft. Namely, his two elements.

Would be more acceptable if he was like in his 20s, but he is fucking 11. God, that is insane.

Ether lump [Others]
Ether, the Fifth Imaginary Substance as coined by the Association. It is a necessary medium that gives shape by mixing with the Four Elements.
It is shapeless, but it is a critical element in the functioning of magecraft.
Ether is bound to become one of Earth, Water, Fire and Wind, but in the hands of a novice, it would fail to become one of the Four Elements and materialize. This is ether lump.
Ether lump is completely useless. In some sense, creating ether lump is analogous to creating "Nothingness". Looking at it from this perspective makes it sound like "True Magic" In fact, ether lump is originally the First Magic's ----------

Ether lumps, or clumps, are useless for magi. There is something about them being linked to the 1st but for the love of god if you say anything about that you deserve to be smacked.

Normally they are useless, yes, but Kiyoshi is not normal. He's mostly useless at magic, but has an ability to manipulate them.

[Knick]

He's not anything like as strong as you're making out. He's just strong enough to be capable of not instantly dying to a stiff breeze....

He is 11, why wouldn't he die to EVERYTHING in the city already.

Isn't that the whole reason Rider is even with him, to protect him, so he doesn't die?

[Cherry Lover]

He's not anything like as strong as you're making out. He's just strong enough to be capable of not instantly dying to a stiff breeze....

He is 11, why wouldn't he die to EVERYTHING in the city already.

Isn't that the whole reason Rider is even with him, to protect him, so he doesn't die?

He would lose to just about anything in the city, yes, but that doesn't mean he dies without a fight.

[YOLF]

To try and clean up the matter in general.

Zouken only stated he made her body more suitable for the Matou magecraft more or less. In the process, he had to alter her to the point it drastically changed her appearance, and forcefully gave her the Matou element and sorcery trait. Presumably he had to alter her soul and/or circuits to manage this, which would have consequences on her physical characteristics (especially considering the "body reflects the soul" concept). The crux of the matter here is that it obviously had an effect on her mundane characteristics and not just the supernatural ones, following the previous logic. This does not necessarily mean her genetics were entirely altered, at least not directly.

Well, my conclusion is: maybe she doesn't have "Matou genetics" in the strict sense of the word, and her children would inherit her original "Tohsaka genetics", but Sakura herself might as well be a Matou and not a Tohsaka in any way.

(Although if Zouken's process altered Sakura's characteristics as a magus, I personally find it unlikely that she'd pass on her original ones as opposed to what they were changed to, even if the kids are mostly Tohsaka genetically speaking. I dunno, these are just my thoughts.)

[Cherry Lover]

To try and clean up the matter in general.

Zouken only stated he made her body more suitable for the Matou magecraft more or less. In the process, he had to altered her to the point it drastically changed her appearance, and forcefully gave her the Matou element and sorcery trait. Presumably he had to alter her soul and/or circuits to manage this, which would have consequences on her physical characteristics (especially considering the "body reflects the soul" concept). The crux of the matter here is that it obviously had an effect on her mundane characteristics and not just the supernatural ones, following the previous logic. This does not necessarily mean her genetics were entirely altered, at least not directly.

Well, my conclusion is: maybe she doesn't have "Matou genetics" in the strict sense of the word, and her children would inherit her original "Tohsaka genetics", but Sakura herself might as well be a Matou and not a Tohsaka in any way.

Sure, I don't doubt that she is a Matou in any way that matters. What bothers me is her children.

As for Kiyoshi's strength, ultimately I want him to be capable of standing up to weaker enemies (ones that a normal magus could kill with ease, but a normal human would die to almost instantly). If he can't do that, then he is largely useless as a character, because Rider has to watch him all the time and just keep him away from everything, lest he get killed before she can even get to him.

For example, he could probably defeat a normal vampire mook, but he wouldn't stand a chance against someone like Forest.