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[Cherry Lover]

Magos, Lantz does not have to let his characters die for your benefit. And, BTW, the same applies to Rider, and the rest of my characters. If they were to be allowed to die (which is unlikely) it will only be if I find it an interesting development.

[Arch-Magos Winter]

Magos, Lantz does not have to let his characters die for your benefit. And, BTW, the same applies to Rider, and the rest of my characters. If they were to be allowed to die (which is unlikely) it will only be if I find it an interesting development.

See, here's the problem, and why I love RPG's so much - however you define interesting, it probably won't happen. Ever.

Especially knowing Lantz, he won't, and he's stated before, that he won't let his characters die to mine, even when it's realistically going to happen, makes sense dramatically, and wants 'literary deaths' which I have no idea what that means.

As Daiki said earlier in the thread, refusing to allow your characters to die sucks all fun for everyone else out of the RP, along with all the tension. With Lantz, it's even worse, he refuses to allow them to even get hurt. That's bad. That's really bad.

To take a bit from my recent hunter game for example - the only reason Bloble's character isn't in the hospital for the in game equivalent of months, is because Nacho's had a fantastic pair of rolls with a shotgun to blast the monster off of him, otherwise his character would have been out of commission for a while.

In this, that won't happen. Actually, the only characters that have gotten injured so far are Law and Isa IIRC.

[Cherry Lover]

Magos, this is a different type of RP. We have characters with wildly different power levels based around the principle of pulling in interesting characters and having interactions between them. If you start allowing character deaths without the player's consent then we all end up having to make OP characters in order to defend ourselves, or at least to design our characters around survivability rather than interest. D&D has a stat system for a reason.

Also, frankly, you killing Lantz's characters would ruin the RP for him. I don't see why, just because you've made the most OP character possible, you should be the only one allowed to have fun. We're not in this RP to fight you, we're in this RP because we want to have interesting character interactions with our characters. Fighting is OK, but forcing us to accept deaths you impose on us is not.

[Bloble]

Whoa Mike. I'm not getting into this whole argument, but I'm fairly sure that lantz wins here when it comes to having the most OP characters (sorry man, but Satoshi is just overpowered no matter how you try to justify it), with Mord as runner up because of that crazy arrancar chick with A+++ in every stat (shine on you crazy diamond).

Well, at least until I bring in Dio. Then you can yell at me all you want.

[Arch-Magos Winter]

Magos, this is a different type of RP. We have characters with wildly different power levels based around the principle of pulling in interesting characters and having interactions between them. If you start allowing character deaths without the player's consent then we all end up having to make OP characters in order to defend ourselves, or at least to design our characters around survivability rather than interest. D&D has a stat system for a reason.

Also, frankly, you killing Lantz's characters would ruin the RP for him. I don't see why, just because you've made the most OP character possible, you should be the only one allowed to have fun. We're not in this RP to fight you, we're in this RP because we want to have interesting character interactions with our characters. Fighting is OK, but forcing us to accept deaths you impose on us is not.

Which is rather funny, as Raul isn't close to the most OP character here. He's actually weaker than Satoshi in most ways - he's no immortal 18 year old that's actually 2000 with access to magic from Merlin, a Noble Phantasm he shouldn't have, also a dragon, or  able to regenerate from everything. All he is, is a Demon who's never going to go Loud without his very existence at stake, and even then will hesitate to activate it as it will strip him of the one thing he can truly call his own in this world. And no, you don't need to make OP characters to defend yourselves, you just have to play it fucking smart like you should in the first place.

I don't see how this would ruin the RP for him if he's not being an idiot - he can always bring in new characters. It's what I'll do if one kicks the bucket. For that matter, Downy will kill everyone ANYWAY (And according to you ruining the RP for Lantz) with his nuclear blast realistically. So this point is moot. You're all doomed, if one old stoner doesn't somehow save the world again, while high off his ass. My moneys on Downy succeeding.

[Cherry Lover]

Whoa Mike. I'm not getting into this whole argument, but I'm fairly sure that lantz wins here when it comes to having the most OP characters (sorry man, but Satoshi is just overpowered no matter how you try to justify it), with Mord as runner up because of that crazy arrancar chick with A+++ in every stat (shine on you crazy diamond).

Well, at least until I bring in Dio. Then you can yell at me all you want.

From what I can tell, that's not true. I recall you saying Inferno Cop was a God, for example, and Magos certainly seems confident that Raul would defeat Toshi.

Magos, this is a different type of RP. We have characters with wildly different power levels based around the principle of pulling in interesting characters and having interactions between them. If you start allowing character deaths without the player's consent then we all end up having to make OP characters in order to defend ourselves, or at least to design our characters around survivability rather than interest. D&D has a stat system for a reason.

Also, frankly, you killing Lantz's characters would ruin the RP for him. I don't see why, just because you've made the most OP character possible, you should be the only one allowed to have fun. We're not in this RP to fight you, we're in this RP because we want to have interesting character interactions with our characters. Fighting is OK, but forcing us to accept deaths you impose on us is not.

Which is rather funny, as Raul isn't close to the most OP character here. He's actually weaker than Satoshi in most ways - he's no immortal 18 year old that's actually 2000 with access to magic from Merlin, a Noble Phantasm he shouldn't have, also a dragon, or  able to regenerate from everything. All he is, is a Demon who's never going to go Loud without his very existence at stake, and even then will hesitate to activate it as it will strip him of the one thing he can truly call his own in this world.

So, in other words, he's not at-all OP unless he's in a situation where he actually needs to be OP, in which case he is...? And his only limits are self-imposed, which means you can lift them whenever you feel like fucking someone over?

Yeah, sorry, that is OP.

And no, you don't need to make OP characters to defend yourselves, you just have to play it fucking smart like you should in the first place.

Again, you're missing the damn point. This RP is not about "playing it smart", it's about developing the characters. I know Kiyoshi will do some stupid things and that's intentional. I don't want to be forced to have him under 24/7 armed guard from Rider because someone might decide to kill him for no reason (which would wreck the RP for me because the rest of my characters would go nuts).

I don't see how this would ruin the RP for him if he's not being an idiot - he can always bring in new characters. It's what I'll do if one kicks the bucket.

No, because I certainly joined the RP because I wanted to play these characters.

Also, whilst losing one character might be OK, consistently losing characters all the time certainly does ruin the RP for the player in question. This RP is about character development and interaction, and you can't develop a character who is dead. Therefore, allowing forced character deaths means that a concerted effort from another player can destroy the game for their target.

So, given that you are quite blatantly targetting Lantz's characters because you don't like him/them, I think Lantz is being entirely reasonable in not alowing you to do that. Allowing forced character deaths does not work when people can make characters arbitrarily to exploit weaknesses and with arbitrary powerlevels.

For that matter, Downy will kill everyone ANYWAY (And according to you ruining the RP for Lantz) with his nuclear blast realistically. So this point is moot. You're all doomed, if one old stoner doesn't somehow save the world again, while high off his ass. My moneys on Downy succeeding.

Yeah, wiping out the whole city is certainly going to wreck the RP....

[Bloble]

Joke characters don't count, Mike, otherwise Axe Cop would be the most powerful being in the universe.

[Cherry Lover]

Joke characters don't count, Mike, otherwise Axe Cop would be the most powerful being in the universe.

The thing is, that logic only works because we're allowed to say "no, we won't accept deaths". Because Joke characters aren't so funny when they kill you....

[Arch-Magos Winter]

So, in other words, he's not at-all OP unless he's in a situation where he actually needs to be OP, in which case he is...? And his only limits are self-imposed, which means you can lift them whenever you feel like fucking someone over?

Yeah, sorry, that is OP.

Again, you're missing the damn point. This RP is not about "playing it smart", it's about developing the characters. I know Kiyoshi will do some stupid things and that's intentional. I don't want to be forced to have him under 24/7 armed guard from Rider because someone might decide to kill him for no reason (which would wreck the RP for me because the rest of my characters would go nuts).

No, because I certainly joined the RP because I wanted to play these characters.

Also, whilst losing one character might be OK, consistently losing characters all the time certainly does ruin the RP for the player in question. This RP is about character development and interaction, and you can't develop a character who is dead. Therefore, allowing forced character deaths means that a concerted effort from another player can destroy the game for their target.

So, given that you are quite blatantly targetting Lantz's characters because you don't like him/them, I think Lantz is being entirely reasonable in not alowing you to do that. Allowing forced character deaths does not work when people can make characters arbitrarily to exploit weaknesses and with arbitrary powerlevels.

Yeah, wiping out the whole city is certainly going to wreck the RP....

Because HOLY TEXT WALL BATMAN! I'm going to run through this really really fast.

- Raul has the possibility if he goes loud, which he won't because of a point I'll address... right now! In Demon form however, yeah, he could match Satoshi physically, but there's no way he could win without luck, guts, and dictating the battle on his own terms... three things Lantz won't ever allow.
- Raul won't go loud because if he does the following will happen: His cover, his very name is obliterated. This is the only thing he can call his own, this is his very identity. Going loud would make him in a way, cease to exist. Going Loud also guarantees his own destruction unless he's beyond lucky; the God-Machine will send its own unleashed Angels after him, and Raul is no where near powerful enough to survive until he can find another Cover and escape. For that matter, it might cause the God-Machine to accelerate its plans for the Nexus, something that would ALSO END THE RP.
- Kiyoshi is 11, his idiocy is forgivable. We're also not all murderhobo dicks. We won't murder each other over the little things, we'll need solid in character reasons... something I'll cover in my next line.
- NO. I am not targeting Lantz. Connor's own sheet lead to his being attacked by Lawrence because of what Lawrence knew OC. Satoshi is on Raul's shitlist at the moment because that Castle is so likely to be Infrastructure that it isn't even funny. If Rider had been the first out the door, he would have targeted her as an Angel in Cover. Same with Suetoshi. Character death, once again, is a natural and beautiful thing that leads to fun and even more fun character interactions, development, and a bunch of other things. Here's another thing: Don't play characters you aren't alright with possibly dying like a bitch. It's a simple rule that will save you much suffering and allow you to RP more effectively.

[Arch-Magos Winter]

Joke characters don't count, Mike, otherwise Axe Cop would be the most powerful being in the universe.

The thing is, that logic only works because we're allowed to say "no, we won't accept deaths". Because Joke characters aren't so funny when they kill you....

Again, you're not trusting us to play them as Joke Characters. You're being far too paranoid Mike.

[Cherry Lover]

Again, Magos, you're missing the damn point. This RP is designed so we can play with characters we don't want to see die, and we like it that way. Not all RPs have to follow your ideal structure, or be so cut-throat as you seem to want them to be.

All I can really say at this point is "go read the first post in this thread", honestly. Elf makes it absolutely clear how the RP is meant to be, and it is not meant to be a cut-throat battle for survival between players. It is meant to be about character development and interaction, and that doesn't work if characters keep dying.

That is how the RP is designed and that is how several of us including the GM wish for it to remain. If you don't like it then go make your own RP which runs according to your rules. Don't try to co-opt ours into something that we don't want it to be. You can, of course, play however you like, but you do not get to force that playstyle on the rest of us.

As for the "Joke characters" thing, if Inferno Cop is about to kill Satoshi (or at least make a genuine attempt to do so that would succeed were it not for Elf's "no killing" rule) then I think I have good reason to take issue there.

[Arch-Magos Winter]

Again, Magos, you're missing the damn point. This RP is designed so we can play with characters we don't want to see die, and we like it that way. Not all RPs have to follow your ideal structure, or be so cut-throat as you seem to want them to be.

All I can really say at this point is "go read the first post in this thread", honestly. Elf makes it absolutely clear how the RP is meant to be, and it is not meant to be a cut-throat battle for survival between players. It is meant to be about character development and interaction, and that doesn't work if characters keep dying.

That is how the RP is designed and that is how several of us including the GM with for it to remain. If you don't like it then go make your own RP which runs according to your rules. Don't try to co-opt ours into something that we don't want it to be.

As for the "Joke characters" thing, if Inferno Cop is about to kill Satoshi (or at least make a genuine attempt to do so that would succeed were it not for Elf's "no killing" rule) then I think I have good reason to take issue there.

Oh, no, I don't want them to be cut throat. Stop putting words into my mouth. I'm just trying to point out that you should be willing to let your characters die. That's all I'm saying.

And how do you know Inferno Cop won't just slap some cuffs on him, say 'You're nicked sonny' and drag him off to jail? Persecution complex much?

[Cherry Lover]

Again, Magos, you're missing the damn point. This RP is designed so we can play with characters we don't want to see die, and we like it that way. Not all RPs have to follow your ideal structure, or be so cut-throat as you seem to want them to be.

All I can really say at this point is "go read the first post in this thread", honestly. Elf makes it absolutely clear how the RP is meant to be, and it is not meant to be a cut-throat battle for survival between players. It is meant to be about character development and interaction, and that doesn't work if characters keep dying.

That is how the RP is designed and that is how several of us including the GM with for it to remain. If you don't like it then go make your own RP which runs according to your rules. Don't try to co-opt ours into something that we don't want it to be.

As for the "Joke characters" thing, if Inferno Cop is about to kill Satoshi (or at least make a genuine attempt to do so that would succeed were it not for Elf's "no killing" rule) then I think I have good reason to take issue there.

Oh, no, I don't want them to be cut throat. Stop putting words into my mouth. I'm just trying to point out that you should be willing to let your characters die. That's all I'm saying.

Well, I disagree. I think it depends on context and the characters in question. If you don't want a character to die then you should not be forced to avoid playing them to prevent that, and nor should you be forced to allow someone else to completely ruin the RP for you.

Also, it should absolutely be up to the player to decide whether the death method is fair and good for the RP. Otherwise it is just too abuseable given the different power levels and play styles in action here. And, Lantz has been pretty clear that he is OK with his characters dying if he thinks it's fair and leads to good development, he just doesn't see your actions as fitting that.

And how do you know Inferno Cop won't just slap some cuffs on him, say 'You're nicked sonny' and drag him off to jail? Persecution complex much?

Because Satoshi and Rider won't let him?

[Arch-Magos Winter]

And that's their problem. In which case, Inferno Cop punches out Naked Rider, slaps the handcuffs on, and drags him away anyway.

It's also not fun for us, if you and Lantz can do whatever the fuck you want without consequences and get your way every fucking time Mike. You have to give and take.

[Cherry Lover]

The thing is, though, you're expecting your characters to just do whatever they damn well like without consequences, and are abusing their OPness to do so.

And, I'm not seeing any "give" on your part here. You're just expecting us to let you just dictate how we can act and take whatever punishment you decide, up to and including death. You're trying to remove our enjoyment of the RP by forcing us to accept the death of characters on your terms even if we see that death as unfair or if it ruins the RP for us due to characterisation issues, and you're giving up absolutely nothing that you currently have.

The RP was designed so we could play this way (although consequences are still possible, just not death), and you have no right to expect us to change that. I don't mind trying to make the RP better for you but I will not do so by ruining it for myself.

As for the cop thing, if he starts doing that then he is not a "Joke character" any more. Joke characters don't force everyone else's character to follow their rules.