Questions thread

[Andoriol]

Oh, yeah, definitely "funny" that he got summoned. Sucks majorly for him, but it's explicitly a weird situation. (And over the course of getting those stats, he does earn the right to the throne, but I'm glossing over a lot of stuff for these questions). And yeah, that's a better way of putting it, when does Rin go from Facepalm to (Evil) Smiles? 

And I know it's not simple for those exact reasons, that's kind of why I'm asking
We're talking about a character who, at the end of this, can turn into a Dragon at will, has an armor that reduces all damage by 12 ranks and a shield that reduces it by 13 (this turns an A++++ attack into trivial damage) at no cost to him, has a sword that is essentially a slightly weaker unholy version of Excalibur, a bow that can fire arrows (and his other weapons) at hypersonic speeds, magic that makes most Caster's jaws drop, Item Creation of Ridiculous, A rank Magic Resistance, and A+ Battle Continuation. All on top of decent to solid base stats. The statline also glosses over that he can effectively create a Reality Marble as part of his Travelers Magic.

So... I feel rather uncomfortable bringing a character like this into the Holy Grail War even after establishing him over the course of the fic, simply because he seems overpowered. This is a guy at least comparable to Karna or Gilgamesh even without set-up/prep time. The only reason I can't say he definitively exceeds Gilgamesh is because Ea is raw bullshit (an attack power of 4000 compared to an A+++ being 200. Seriously, wtf). 

[Cherry Lover]

Wouldn't he have already won the war before he gets to that point?

But, well, it's not really at-all clear what sort of restrictions the class containers put on the servants, for the simple reason that we never see any of them without those restrictions. It definitely does limit their access to weapons (Saber would have several other weapons in life) and the form that they take, but I'm not sure how much that would apply to someone not from the throne who is still alive.

[Andoriol]

Actually, from the summary I've been hammering out of the fic, he gets very close to winning the war starting at the fourth swing. The problems are Gilgamesh, running out of luck, and Dark Sakura.

And yeah, I don't know either, that's why I'm trying to get other people's thoughts  I don't expect hard and fast rules so much as general feelings and thoughts on it

[Cherry Lover]

Actually, from the summary I've been hammering out of the fic, he gets very close to winning the war starting at the fourth swing. The problems are Gilgamesh, running out of luck, and Dark Sakura.

Well, isn't Dark Sakura easy enough to handle if you know about her past? You just find a way to deworm her and kill Zouken before it gets that far....

And yeah, I don't know either, that's why I'm trying to get other people's thoughts  I don't expect hard and fast rules so much as general feelings and thoughts on it

Well, it's hard to say. To some extent, I think the answer is probably "he is restricted as much as you want him to be". It depends on the power of the master too, though. A weak master will limit their servant a lot more.

[Andoriol]

Well, isn't Dark Sakura easy enough to handle if you know about her past? You just find a way to deworm her and kill Zouken before it gets that far....

Honestly? Yeah, but the Shadow blind-sides him one time, and he lacks a way to really de-worm her as well as kill Zouken, at least initially. Lucky or not, his knowledge isn't perfect and he gets caught with his pants down, especially since he's focusing on not dying by Berserker.

He also has the unusual problem for an Archer that the moment he loses his connection to his Master, for whatever reason (her death, or even something like Rule-breaker) he dissipates within moments.

Well, it's hard to say. To some extent, I think the answer is probably "he is restricted as much as you want him to be". It depends on the power of the master too, though. A weak master will limit their servant a lot more.

Well, his master is consistently Rin, he's summoned into another iteration of the same War again and again by her (in place of EMIYA), so he's got a powerful master.

My initial thoughts so far are that he can't turn into a Dragon, because that's just kind of hax even compared to stuff like Excalibur. But other than that, I have trouble figuring out how he'd be limited.

[Cherry Lover]

Honestly? Yeah, but the Shadow blind-sides him one time, and he lacks a way to really de-worm her as well as kill Zouken, at least initially. Lucky or not, his knowledge isn't perfect and he gets caught with his pants down, especially since he's focusing on not dying by Berserker.

Hmm, I see.

I'm hoping the solution to this problem isn't "kill Sakura"....

He also has the unusual problem for an Archer that the moment he loses his connection to his Master, for whatever reason (her death, or even something like Rule-breaker) he dissipates within moments.

Why?

Well, his master is consistently Rin, he's summoned into another iteration of the same War again and again by her (in place of EMIYA), so he's got a powerful master.

Yeah.

My initial thoughts so far are that he can't turn into a Dragon, because that's just kind of hax even compared to stuff like Excalibur. But other than that, I have trouble figuring out how he'd be limited.

Well, "it's hax" isn't a reason to deny him an NP that he would logically have. Ea is "hax", after all. You need a more concrete justification why he wouldn't have it than that.

[Andoriol]

Hmm, I see.

I'm hoping the solution to this problem isn't "kill Sakura"....

While he's willing to do so if it means saving everyone he never gets the chance to do so and he really would prefer not to. One of the drafts I currently have is of him ripping out Sakura's heart, worm and all before replacing it with one of his own that he rips from his own chest.

He also has the unusual problem for an Archer that the moment he loses his connection to his Master, for whatever reason (her death, or even something like Rule-breaker) he dissipates within moments.

Why?

His only anchor to whatever reality he's in is his master or some other thing that he's mystically bonded to. While he doesn't need prana to support him since he's still fully alive and not on the precipice of death like Saber is (whatever her nebulous state she's really in), he does need something to hold him there. Without a connection to that reality, he starts fading away immediately, especially since he doesn't know how to hold himself in place until much later, when the point is moot. In theory, by the 8th Swing or so, he could stay in a reality indefinitely provided effort, but by that point he never gets the chance. His connection to Rin is severed for various reasons and he's too busy not dying to otherwise anchor himself again.

Well, "it's hax" isn't a reason to deny him an NP that he would logically have. Ea is "hax", after all. You need a more concrete justification why he wouldn't have it than that.

Very, very true.

Part of it is because he's an Archer, at least in these situations. While he could qualify for any class (Lancer and Rider having the weakest justifications in his 'legend'), Caster, Archer, and Saber are the one's he's best suited for (in order from best to worst).

While turning into a Dragon is definitely a part of his 'legend', as well as slaying dragons (seriously, he ends up slaying somewhere around eight full grown dragons, something I hadn't intended when I first started this up, but a natural consequence of him being part of the stories he is), it doesn't really fit the Archer part of his 'legend', no more than his sword does, or his bow suiting the Saber class. Though that brings up the problem of which class would theoretically get that ability.

That and I'm uncomfortable with him having so many EX rated anythings as he does. While I could be misjudging ranks (entirely plausible), it still seems really awkward and weird to have 4 EX rated things. 

Side Note: Ea is basically the definition of "teh haxxorz", it's just freaking ridiculous

[Cherry Lover]

While he's willing to do so if it means saving everyone he never gets the chance to do so and he really would prefer not to.

I'm not entirely sure how murdering an innocent girl in cold blood is compatible with "saving everyone"....

One of the drafts I currently have is of him ripping out Sakura's heart, worm and all before replacing it with one of his own that he rips from his own chest.

Well, firstly how would he make the heart connect, secondly how would he ensure she didn't reject the heart due to incompatibility (or due to it being part of a servant...) and thirdly what about him?

His only anchor to whatever reality he's in is his master or some other thing that he's mystically bonded to. While he doesn't need prana to support him since he's still fully alive and not on the precipice of death like Saber is (whatever her nebulous state she's really in), he does need something to hold him there. Without a connection to that reality, he starts fading away immediately, especially since he doesn't know how to hold himself in place until much later, when the point is moot. In theory, by the 8th Swing or so, he could stay in a reality indefinitely provided effort, but by that point he never gets the chance. His connection to Rin is severed for various reasons and he's too busy not dying to otherwise anchor himself again.

Independent Action is a class skill, though, it's one he should have even if his own nature means he wouldn't possess it.

Part of it is because he's an Archer, at least in these situations. While he could qualify for any class (Lancer and Rider having the weakest justifications in his 'legend'), Caster, Archer, and Saber are the one's he's best suited for (in order from best to worst).

While turning into a Dragon is definitely a part of his 'legend', as well as slaying dragons (seriously, he ends up slaying somewhere around eight full grown dragons, something I hadn't intended when I first started this up, but a natural consequence of him being part of the stories he is), it doesn't really fit the Archer part of his 'legend', no more than his sword does, or his bow suiting the Saber class. Though that brings up the problem of which class would theoretically get that ability.

Well, that's somewhat logical but, then, a Reality Marble is not exactly what you'd expect from an Archer-class servant either....

That and I'm uncomfortable with him having so many EX rated anythings as he does. While I could be misjudging ranks (entirely plausible), it still seems really awkward and weird to have 4 EX rated things.  :-

Well, yeah, definitely. It's just a matter of giving reasonable justification for it.

[Andoriol]

While he's willing to do so if it means saving everyone he never gets the chance to do so and he really would prefer not to.

I'm not entirely sure how murdering an innocent girl in cold blood is compatible with "saving everyone"....

There should have been an 'else' in there mind you, my bad.

Though like I said, would really prefer not to. He's not Shirou and doesn't have a hitch in his head about "Saving Everyone", but he'd definitely prefer to when possible.  It's honestly a horrible act, but given the choice between ending her life and letting her go crazy and end the lives of an uncountable number of other people? He would kill her. He'd also justify it to himself after the fact if he had to do it, he's not a 'perfect' hero.

One of the drafts I currently have is of him ripping out Sakura's heart, worm and all before replacing it with one of his own that he rips from his own chest.

Well, firstly how would he make the heart connect, secondly how would he ensure she didn't reject the heart due to incompatibility (or due to it being part of a servant...) and thirdly what about him?

In order: 1). Medical knowledge combined with healing magic from other universes, connecting it in of itself is not difficult, though it's somewhat larger than her original heart, it likely would be in similar size to that of hers + the worm

2). Future medicine specifically made for that purpose and that he has because something almost identical was done to him in more controlled circumstances. He has the materials on him because he (due to the ridiculous proliferation of his implants and the variety) still needs regular doses of it and had to learn how to make it. The Servant part I'm not actually sure applies since he's not a Heroic Spirit. I'm willing to listen to arguments either way on that.

3). He has multiple hearts, explicitly. A quirk of all the things he goes through ensures that he has a total of 3 organic hearts and one mechanical one distributed throughout his torso. This is also why he is able to ease the transfer of his heart to her.

He has a primary heart and a secondary heart that are always beating, but a tertiary heart that only starts beating in stressful situations as well as the mechanical heart as a further backup in case the above are destroyed. While giving up a heart weakens him (the secondary heart as its the only one similar enough to a normal persons to function as one), he's still able to keep functioning and would, eventually, regrow the heart due to his regeneration. Not on the timescale of the HGW, but it would regrow.

Independent Action is a class skill, though, it's one he should have even if his own nature means he wouldn't possess it.

Really? I would've thought this would've replaced that skill. The effect is similar, but it suits him better. That and it would mean the only way to remove him from the War is to kill him since there's no reason a living person couldn't respire prana naturally and if he's dead... well... he's dead.

Well, that's somewhat logical but, then, a Reality Marble is not exactly what you'd expect from an Archer-class servant either....

Touche', but this is a 'Servant' with magic, swords, armor, bows, an 'effective' Reality Marble (Creating a demiplane and dropping everyone into it mid combat), transforming into a dragon... there's gotta be a point where you say enough's enough. While part of this guy's trick is having the appropriate response for a problem, there's a point where the reader (and myself) go "You've got to be shitting me" in a negative fashion 

[Cherry Lover]

While he's willing to do so if it means saving everyone he never gets the chance to do so and he really would prefer not to.

I'm not entirely sure how murdering an innocent girl in cold blood is compatible with "saving everyone"....

There should have been an 'else' in there mind you, my bad.

Though like I said, would really prefer not to. He's not Shirou and doesn't have a hitch in his head about "Saving Everyone", but he'd definitely prefer to when possible.  It's honestly a horrible act, but given the choice between ending her life and letting her go crazy and end the lives of an uncountable number of other people? He would kill her. He'd also justify it to himself after the fact if he had to do it, he's not a 'perfect' hero.

So he'd murder an innocent girl in cold blood because she might go insane and murder everyone? Seems rather unheroic to me....

In order: 1). Medical knowledge combined with healing magic from other universes, connecting it in of itself is not difficult, though it's somewhat larger than her original heart, it likely would be in similar size to that of hers + the worm

I don't think the worm is particularly large, although I'm not sure the size is that big an issue.

2). Future medicine specifically made for that purpose and that he has because something almost identical was done to him in more controlled circumstances. He has the materials on him because he (due to the ridiculous proliferation of his implants and the variety) still needs regular doses of it and had to learn how to make it.

If he's still using regular doses, how is Sakura going to survive long-term?

The Servant part I'm not actually sure applies since he's not a Heroic Spirit. I'm willing to listen to arguments either way on that.

If he fades away without an anchor then he still counts as a "servant" in this context, I think.

3). He has multiple hearts, explicitly. A quirk of all the things he goes through ensures that he has a total of 3 organic hearts and one mechanical one distributed throughout his torso. This is also why he is able to ease the transfer of his heart to her.

He has a primary heart and a secondary heart that are always beating, but a tertiary heart that only starts beating in stressful situations as well as the mechanical heart as a further backup in case the above are destroyed. While giving up a heart weakens him (the secondary heart as its the only one similar enough to a normal persons to function as one), he's still able to keep functioning and would, eventually, regrow the heart due to his regeneration. Not on the timescale of the HGW, but it would regrow.

Ah, OK, I see.

Really? I would've thought this would've replaced that skill. The effect is similar, but it suits him better. That and it would mean the only way to remove him from the War is to kill him since there's no reason a living person couldn't respire prana naturally and if he's dead... well... he's dead.

Well, Independant Action is a different thing. It means the servant can survive for longer without an anchor. It's part of the class container for an Archer-class servant, so it's something he should have. It doesn't mean he'd live forever, though, it just means being without a master is not instantly fatal.

Also, if he dies when he is killed as a servant, then how does he survive the first few wars? Rin would never die or lose her contract before he did. And, I'm not sure how exactly that helps him, anyway. Getting physically killed as a servant and getting your existence crushed by the world has the exact same effect.

[

quote]Well, that's somewhat logical but, then, a Reality Marble is not exactly what you'd expect from an Archer-class servant either....

Touche', but this is a 'Servant' with magic, swords, armor, bows, an 'effective' Reality Marble (Creating a demiplane and dropping everyone into it mid combat), transforming into a dragon... there's gotta be a point where you say enough's enough. While part of this guy's trick is having the appropriate response for a problem, there's a point where the reader (and myself) go "You've got to be shitting me" in a negative fashion 
[/quote]

Well, sure, the question is how you justify that in-story....

[Andoriol]

There should have been an 'else' in there mind you, my bad.

Though like I said, would really prefer not to. He's not Shirou and doesn't have a hitch in his head about "Saving Everyone", but he'd definitely prefer to when possible.  It's honestly a horrible act, but given the choice between ending her life and letting her go crazy and end the lives of an uncountable number of other people? He would kill her. He'd also justify it to himself after the fact if he had to do it, he's not a 'perfect' hero.

So he'd murder an innocent girl in cold blood because she might go insane and murder everyone? Seems rather unheroic to me....

This is a misunderstanding, when she's already gone insane and trying to murder people, not before. He'd be willing to murder her if she was starting to go insane, but this is explicitly not heroic, I agree. This is a horrible thing, but it's a part of the character. He almost certainly couldn't be summoned by a non-tainted grail.

In order: 1). Medical knowledge combined with healing magic from other universes, connecting it in of itself is not difficult, though it's somewhat larger than her original heart, it likely would be in similar size to that of hers + the worm

I don't think the worm is particularly large, although I'm not sure the size is that big an issue.

Me either! Just making note. It'd be uncomfortable for her then just due to size.

2). Future medicine specifically made for that purpose and that he has because something almost identical was done to him in more controlled circumstances. He has the materials on him because he (due to the ridiculous proliferation of his implants and the variety) still needs regular doses of it and had to learn how to make it.

If he's still using regular doses, how is Sakura going to survive long-term?

He's a unique case. She'll need a lot of it in the first place, but not over long term.

The Servant part I'm not actually sure applies since he's not a Heroic Spirit. I'm willing to listen to arguments either way on that.

If he fades away without an anchor then he still counts as a "servant" in this context, I think.

Hrm. Then I have to address that... any thoughts?

Really? I would've thought this would've replaced that skill. The effect is similar, but it suits him better. That and it would mean the only way to remove him from the War is to kill him since there's no reason a living person couldn't respire prana naturally and if he's dead... well... he's dead.

Well, Independant Action is a different thing. It means the servant can survive for longer without an anchor. It's part of the class container for an Archer-class servant, so it's something he should have. It doesn't mean he'd live forever, though, it just means being without a master is not instantly fatal.

Also, if he dies when he is killed as a servant, then how does he survive the first few wars? Rin would never die or lose her contract before he did. And, I'm not sure how exactly that helps him, anyway. Getting physically killed as a servant and getting your existence crushed by the world has the exact same effect.

Eaugh, that's... problematic...

... hrm... unless the Independant Action starts off really low... which would make sense.... hm...

Anyways, in the first few Wars, she does die before him. He has no skills or power or attributes other than his luck which saves him, but not her. That and Rulebreaker catches him off guard, he forgets that Medea has it between Wars since he never had to deal with it personally.

And he's a living being enough (and his summoning is enough of the Second Magic that) Gaia doesn't crush his existence so much as shunt him out (and thus, back into the Kaleidiscope).

At least that's the concept, because otherwise there's no resolution for him in the HGW other than death or victory, and since death for him would be permanent, this is just kinda sorta maye a LOT of a bad thing.

Touche', but this is a 'Servant' with magic, swords, armor, bows, an 'effective' Reality Marble (Creating a demiplane and dropping everyone into it mid combat), transforming into a dragon... there's gotta be a point where you say enough's enough. While part of this guy's trick is having the appropriate response for a problem, there's a point where the reader (and myself) go "You've got to be shitting me" in a negative fashion 

Well, sure, the question is how you justify that in-story....

That's going to be justified by a relatively large fic. He goes through a significant amount of crap for most of the things he gains, with a few exceptions.

The problem is that I don't want to create an overpowered character if I can help it, which is why I'm trying to talk to people about it

[Cherry Lover]

There should have been an 'else' in there mind you, my bad.

Though like I said, would really prefer not to. He's not Shirou and doesn't have a hitch in his head about "Saving Everyone", but he'd definitely prefer to when possible.  It's honestly a horrible act, but given the choice between ending her life and letting her go crazy and end the lives of an uncountable number of other people? He would kill her. He'd also justify it to himself after the fact if he had to do it, he's not a 'perfect' hero.

So he'd murder an innocent girl in cold blood because she might go insane and murder everyone? Seems rather unheroic to me....

This is a misunderstanding, when she's already gone insane and trying to murder people, not before. He'd be willing to murder her if she was starting to go insane, but this is explicitly not heroic, I agree. This is a horrible thing, but it's a part of the character. He almost certainly couldn't be summoned by a non-tainted grail.

I see, so he's a bit of an asshole, then?

In order: 1). Medical knowledge combined with healing magic from other universes, connecting it in of itself is not difficult, though it's somewhat larger than her original heart, it likely would be in similar size to that of hers + the worm

I don't think the worm is particularly large, although I'm not sure the size is that big an issue.

Me either! Just making note. It'd be uncomfortable for her then just due to size.

Well, I'm not sure how well the human body can cope with such things, but I'm pretty sure your heart can't just be "uncomfortable". If your heart is causing you pain or discomfort, it is probably not safe....

If he's still using regular doses, how is Sakura going to survive long-term?

He's a unique case. She'll need a lot of it in the first place, but not over long term.

Ah, OK, I see.

It could be possible to get her an alternate heart later, though, or find a healer who could provide one.

If he fades away without an anchor then he still counts as a "servant" in this context, I think.

Hrm. Then I have to address that... any thoughts?

Not sure. It could be a temporary thing, especially if Rin still has her pendant (i.e. she doesn't need to use it to cure Shirou). Indeed, if Rin has the pendant she may well be able to remove or destroy the worm herself....

Eaugh, that's... problematic...

... hrm... unless the Independant Action starts off really low... which would make sense.... hm...

Anyways, in the first few Wars, she does die before him. He has no skills or power or attributes other than his luck which saves him, but not her. That and Rulebreaker catches him off guard, he forgets that Medea has it between Wars since he never had to deal with it personally.

And he's a living being enough (and his summoning is enough of the Second Magic that) Gaia doesn't crush his existence so much as shunt him out (and thus, back into the Kaleidiscope).

At least that's the concept, because otherwise there's no resolution for him in the HGW other than death or victory, and since death for him would be permanent, this is just kinda sorta maye a LOT of a bad thing.

Honestly, I think the whole "death" mechanic here is somewhat contrived as it stands. Having him avoid death in several wars by sheer luck is going to come across looking weird, and I see no logical reason why him getting crushed by the world would have a different effect to him just dying.

As a servant, you don't have a normal body. You are basically just a soul in a container. To be summoned and controlled as a servant that has to be the case. It is possible for the soul to survive the war and return to a body after (like with Saber), but I don't think you could do what you're going for here and still have the guy logically treated as a servant.

Well, sure, the question is how you justify that in-story....

That's going to be justified by a relatively large fic. He goes through a significant amount of crap for most of the things he gains, with a few exceptions.

The problem is that I don't want to create an overpowered character if I can help it, which is why I'm trying to talk to people about it

My issue here is more how you justify him not having some of these abilities. Although, I'm not sure why exactly he's picking so many up when he doesn't need them....

[Andoriol]

I see, so he's a bit of an asshole, then?

Pretty much, yeah. Tries to be a nice guy, usually very pleasant, tries to do the best by everyone... but when the shit hits the fan, he can be kind of a dick. He'd very much pull a Kiritsugu and sacrifice one to save ten.  Remorse doesn't change the fact that yeah, he would.

Well, I'm not sure how well the human body can cope with such things, but I'm pretty sure your heart can't just be "uncomfortable". If your heart is causing you pain or discomfort, it is probably not safe....

Generally no, but I've had to deal with hear trouble and did research on it because of that. The transfered heart (due to the size difference between the two of them) would press more against her left lung than the original did. While this would cause discomfort, it would not be lethal and the body would adapt. Heavy exertion wouldn't be a good idea until she had, and were it a normal heart, too much cardio even afterwards might risk bruising the heart (not fatal but painful and risky) but... well, it's not a normal heart. However, the size difference isn't that big in the first place. It's large enough to have an effect, but not to be ridiculous.

If he's still using regular doses, how is Sakura going to survive long-term?

He's a unique case. She'll need a lot of it in the first place, but not over long term.

Ah, OK, I see.

It could be possible to get her an alternate heart later, though, or find a healer who could provide one.

Certainly, though this would probably weaken her after she'd adjusted. Archer OC has a dragon aspect to him almost identical to Saber Arturia, and as such, Sakura would literally be getting the heart of a dragon. Archer OC wouldn't be aware of this, but I like the concept for future use.

If he fades away without an anchor then he still counts as a "servant" in this context, I think.

Hrm. Then I have to address that... any thoughts?

Not sure. It could be a temporary thing, especially if Rin still has her pendant (i.e. she doesn't need to use it to cure Shirou). Indeed, if Rin has the pendant she may well be able to remove or destroy the worm herself....

True. Hrm.

Eaugh, that's... problematic...

... hrm... unless the Independant Action starts off really low... which would make sense.... hm...

Anyways, in the first few Wars, she does die before him. He has no skills or power or attributes other than his luck which saves him, but not her. That and Rulebreaker catches him off guard, he forgets that Medea has it between Wars since he never had to deal with it personally.

And he's a living being enough (and his summoning is enough of the Second Magic that) Gaia doesn't crush his existence so much as shunt him out (and thus, back into the Kaleidiscope).

At least that's the concept, because otherwise there's no resolution for him in the HGW other than death or victory, and since death for him would be permanent, this is just kinda sorta maye a LOT of a bad thing.

Honestly, I think the whole "death" mechanic here is somewhat contrived as it stands. Having him avoid death in several wars by sheer luck is going to come across looking weird, and I see no logical reason why him getting crushed by the world would have a different effect to him just dying.

As a servant, you don't have a normal body. You are basically just a soul in a container. To be summoned and controlled as a servant that has to be the case. It is possible for the soul to survive the war and return to a body after (like with Saber), but I don't think you could do what you're going for here and still have the guy logically treated as a servant.

In the current draft (which could change obviously) it's only full on luck based survival in the very first few, afterwards its mostly Rin dying or him getting caught by something that severs their connection. Usually her dying because he's a shit Servant. He almost dies multiple times and is healed in the next world he travels to, usually desperately.

Admittedly, it is a bit contrived, but I really don't want to remove the 'drama' of him dying, because hey! He'll be back to try again next time! It really hurts the drama when that's possible, especially in the most dramatically lethal world. If he can die without any real consequences... it really removes a lot of the drama, at least in my ability to write it.

But as for the servant thing... why? If that was the case, and Saber was just a soul summoned by the Grail like the others, why couldn't she assume astral form?

Well, sure, the question is how you justify that in-story....

That's going to be justified by a relatively large fic. He goes through a significant amount of crap for most of the things he gains, with a few exceptions.

The problem is that I don't want to create an overpowered character if I can help it, which is why I'm trying to talk to people about it

My issue here is more how you justify him not having some of these abilities. Although, I'm not sure why exactly he's picking so many up when he doesn't need them....

Sorry

Though he picks up so many abilities because he does need them, but they're far more often tailored to the realm which he's in at the time. The ability to alter Fate and Destiny and being immune to it isn't worth much in F/SN, but in Kingdoms of Amalur it's the defining trait of the protagonist. A lot of the abilities are like that.

And I don't think I've said so yet, but I really appreciate you taking the time to discuss this with me, it's really nice to have someone intelligent to bounce the ideas off of 

[Cherry Lover]

I see, so he's a bit of an asshole, then?

Pretty much, yeah. Tries to be a nice guy, usually very pleasant, tries to do the best by everyone... but when the shit hits the fan, he can be kind of a dick. He'd very much pull a Kiritsugu and sacrifice one to save ten.  Remorse doesn't change the fact that yeah, he would.

Fair enough. As long as it doesn't actually happen I guess it's not really an issue....

Generally no, but I've had to deal with hear trouble and did research on it because of that. The transfered heart (due to the size difference between the two of them) would press more against her left lung than the original did. While this would cause discomfort, it would not be lethal and the body would adapt. Heavy exertion wouldn't be a good idea until she had, and were it a normal heart, too much cardio even afterwards might risk bruising the heart (not fatal but painful and risky) but... well, it's not a normal heart. However, the size difference isn't that big in the first place. It's large enough to have an effect, but not to be ridiculous.

Ah, OK.

Well, a bit of discomfort is nothing compared with what Zouken is putting her through anyway....

Certainly, though this would probably weaken her after she'd adjusted. Archer OC has a dragon aspect to him almost identical to Saber Arturia, and as such, Sakura would literally be getting the heart of a dragon. Archer OC wouldn't be aware of this, but I like the concept for future use.

Ah, I see.

Hrm. Then I have to address that... any thoughts?

Well, I guess it depends. Shirou survives with Archer's arm attached to him, after all. And, the fact that he's even more of a normal human than Archer might help. He might not have quite the same spiritual presence.

In the current draft (which could change obviously) it's only full on luck based survival in the very first few, afterwards its mostly Rin dying or him getting caught by something that severs their connection. Usually her dying because he's a shit Servant. He almost dies multiple times and is healed in the next world he travels to, usually desperately.

Admittedly, it is a bit contrived, but I really don't want to remove the 'drama' of him dying, because hey! He'll be back to try again next time! It really hurts the drama when that's possible, especially in the most dramatically lethal world. If he can die without any real consequences... it really removes a lot of the drama, at least in my ability to write it.

The problem is that the way you're going about it is going to look horribly contrived. There is no reason Rin should die over a completely powerless servant when the servant is the logical first target. Especially since Rin is probably a match for most masters and can hold off a servant for a bit. It happening once makes sense, it happening multiple times seems just bizarre.

It also means that his method of surviving involves a rather-popular canon character dying in his place, which is not exactly something I'd expect most readers to be rooting for....

But as for the servant thing... why? If that was the case, and Saber was just a soul summoned by the Grail like the others, why couldn't she assume astral form?

Well, Saber is still counted as "alive" but, at the same time, she is still clearly a spirit. She requires prana to survive and she just fades into nothingness when she is defeated. I also find it unlikely that killing Saber in the Grail War would prevent her returning to her body.

Sorry

Though he picks up so many abilities because he does need them, but they're far more often tailored to the realm which he's in at the time. The ability to alter Fate and Destiny and being immune to it isn't worth much in F/SN, but in Kingdoms of Amalur it's the defining trait of the protagonist. A lot of the abilities are like that.

Ah, OK.

Well, one issue I can see here is that a massive cross-over fic like this with an OC protagonist is going to require knowledge of a lot of different works to be readable.

And I don't think I've said so yet, but I really appreciate you taking the time to discuss this with me, it's really nice to have someone intelligent to bounce the ideas off of 

It's no problem, I'm happy to help, and you did come over to my forum to discuss it, so helping you out is the least I can do.

[Andoriol]

Fair enough. As long as it doesn't actually happen I guess it's not really an issue....

Not in any of the Fate universes, but it does come up in others.

Generally no, but I've had to deal with hear trouble and did research on it because of that. The transfered heart (due to the size difference between the two of them) would press more against her left lung than the original did. While this would cause discomfort, it would not be lethal and the body would adapt. Heavy exertion wouldn't be a good idea until she had, and were it a normal heart, too much cardio even afterwards might risk bruising the heart (not fatal but painful and risky) but... well, it's not a normal heart. However, the size difference isn't that big in the first place. It's large enough to have an effect, but not to be ridiculous.

Ah, OK.

Well, a bit of discomfort is nothing compared with what Zouken is putting her through anyway....

Pretty much my thoughts.

Hrm. Then I have to address that... any thoughts?

Well, I guess it depends. Shirou survives with Archer's arm attached to him, after all. And, the fact that he's even more of a normal human than Archer might help. He might not have quite the same spiritual presence.

That was my original thought, but there is the problem that this guy is inherently tainted. He was tainted deliberately in order to increase his resistance to further tainting (specifically Dragon Age, he gets drawn into the Gray Wardens) which actually makes him immune to the Blackening that the Shadow performs (though it still kicks him out of existence), but this brings up the problem of how Sakura's body would handle that. Even if there's no real 'spiritual' component to worry about or even any of his blood still in the heart, this is magic we're talking about here. That and yay vampire.

I haven't gotten through Heavens Feel route yet personally so I'm not sure how that would affect her.

The problem is that the way you're going about it is going to look horribly contrived. There is no reason Rin should die over a completely powerless servant when the servant is the logical first target. Especially since Rin is probably a match for most masters and can hold off a servant for a bit. It happening once makes sense, it happening multiple times seems just bizarre.

The first time is purely him being 'Lucky' and her not, Gilgamesh rains death down on a large group (most of the other Servants and masters) at once, and while Archer OC and Rin both go off to the side as 'Masters' to stay out of the fight, Gilgamesh doesn't accept this since Archer OC is the one who essentially started the fight. Rin just happens to get hit before Archer OC and he has essentially no prana or Independent Action at that point.

The second time, when Berserker attacks, Rin actually tries to protect Archer OC since he has no combat ability whatsoever and Saber isn't able to hold off Berserker on her own. At this point, while Archer OC isn't a coward, he's not Shirou either and panics, getting and staying out of the way, and Rin gets bissected. Rin reasons that since Archer has no combat ability and she's the one who summoned him, he's her responsibility (he's explained his situation to her).

The third time, he's barely competent and equipped enough to fight and almost gets killed when Berserker nearly bisects him. The only reason he isn't bisected and very very dead is because Berserker had to hit through a shield and his armor and Rin uses a Command Seal to make him escape, but it kicks him out of existence and back into the kalediscope, removing him from that world. That and in the next world his companions use up all of their healing magic to save him.

The fourth time they're attacked by Berserker and Illya early on as per canon, but when Shirou leaps in front of the attack meant for Saber (since even between the two of them, they can't handle Berserker for obvious reasons), but for reasons that Archer OC doesn't figure out, Illya doesn't have Berserker stop after basically bisecting Shirou. Archer OC has Rin make a contract with Saber on the spot, and Saber ends up using Excalibur, Archer OC stops draining Rin's prana to avoid hurting her... but finds himself fading almost immediately since he has so little prana... but decides to go with it since he's not a viable Servant and it's not killing him.
(This one was revised from the original based on the whole Independant Action thing)

The fifth time, after a solid showing, he gets hit by Rule Breaker and avoids letting Caster take him as a Servant, using his anti-magic blade to take her down before he dissapates. Rin being unable to make a new contract with him before he fades out.
(Again somewhat revised from the original, this time he has the time to actually take out Caster rather than just immediately fading out).

The sixth time, after a decent showing (and getting Rider/Sakura involved as an alliance of Rin, Shirou and Sakura) he gets opened up by Berserker again and Rin tries to force him to turn into Astral form using a Command Seal to save him. since he hadn't mentioned what he was to her this time (a mistake), and ends up getting forced out of existence again instead.

The seventh time, after a very solid showing it ends up with a fight of Archer OC and Berserker vs Gilgamesh. Gilgamesh pulls out Ea and between Berserker and Archer OC's armor/shield/magic of ridiculousness they survive a mid-power blast from it, the surprise of Gilgamesh giving Archer OC enough of an opening to shoot Gilgamesh in the head with a technomagic gun... and then realize that Rin and Shirou and Sakura were all behind him and Berserker when Gilgamesh used Ea... Archer's newly E-rank Luck making a showing. He survived without his master long enough for the combat and uses up the healing potions he has to try and save the others, starting with Rin and then moving to Shirou and then to Sakura, but he fades out before he can since his link with Rin was broken.
(Again, slightly revised)

The eighth time, between himself and the others, they take out Berserker, Caster, Assassin, and Lancer, but before Gilgamesh shows up, the Shadow makes an appearance and drains Archer OC of prana and tries to blacken him... but ends up just making him dissipate. Archer OC never realizes that Sakura was the source of the Shadow.

The ninth time is much like the Eighth, but Saber is blackened first and Archer OC ends up having to hold her off while Shirou and Rin try to save Sakura. But Saber is basically the worst possible opponent for Archer OC and while he wins, he ends up using the last of his Prana to do so and Rin was killed by Psycho-Sakura so Archer OC fades out.

The tenth time, Archer OC ends up essentially winning the war, this being the time that he actually saves Sakura since he knows to do so, the other Servants being non-issues at this point.

But as for the servant thing... why? If that was the case, and Saber was just a soul summoned by the Grail like the others, why couldn't she assume astral form?

Well, Saber is still counted as "alive" but, at the same time, she is still clearly a spirit. She requires prana to survive and she just fades into nothingness when she is defeated. I also find it unlikely that killing Saber in the Grail War would prevent her returning to her body.

True.

Sorry

Though he picks up so many abilities because he does need them, but they're far more often tailored to the realm which he's in at the time. The ability to alter Fate and Destiny and being immune to it isn't worth much in F/SN, but in Kingdoms of Amalur it's the defining trait of the protagonist. A lot of the abilities are like that.

Ah, OK.

Well, one issue I can see here is that a massive cross-over fic like this with an OC protagonist is going to require knowledge of a lot of different works to be readable.

Oh yeah, I've been hashing out how best to make it easier on readers who are new to works to ease them into it. I've got a couple ideas, most of them involve people that he expects to look one way looking somewhat different so he does have to describe them in his head, as well as the OC himself being clueless as to where he is and learning with the readers.

It's no problem, I'm happy to help, and you did come over to my forum to discuss it, so helping you out is the least I can do.

Still, I appreciate it ^_^