Swords and sorcery primer.

[lantzblades]

Swords and sorcery primer.

Well this is a discussion for swords and sorcery, the chronological version. However before we start discussion I feel that I need to make a few things absolutely clear.

Firstly, I perceive the nasuverse as no different than a comic book, unlike the routes which adhere to the style of the novels this story is treated like a comic book.

I can already hear doubts and outrage about this claim and style choice but I'll explain. Plenty of the characters already use the superhero and villain creation formulas present in comics and what's more the nasuverse runs on the same situational combat mechanism all comics adhere to. Furthermore the fights themselves are utterly ridiculous as comic fight and ignore physics just as much if not more. And especially in the case of FSN the main hero follows the western idea of super heroism (we debated the subject back on the proboards) so styling the story like a comic book fits.

On to the second matter. Spoilers, I hate them, I do not see the point in giving them out, the point of a story is to read it. As such, should I tell you it's a spoiler then leave it at that and wait for the answer.

Thirdly, insults and disrespectful behavior are not something I will put up with, if you call names, rage post or use the term Mary sue in here your questions will no longer be accepted or answered. This may seems harsh but frankly we are all mature people and as such should be able to discuss things properly.

Fourth, the point of fan fiction is fun. If you are just here to nit pick, bitch or criticize then I suggest you go elsewhere.

Fifth, the story is one containing time travel, Multi-dimensional travel and yes a trip to the root. If you can't stand alternate history, time paradoxes or interpretation then get out of dodge now.

Sixith, big cast, if you don't like rolling epic stories with a lot of characters then now is the time to exit.

Seventh, the meaning of my works at large is hope and triumph despite the odds. I enjoy stories where despite the odds the good guys can succeed, where the reader can cheer because the tension means something more than "oh god Kohaku doesn't remember her own name" or such that makes the reader feel like shit. Positivity, in a word, is my theme for this story. Don't like it don't read.

Eighth, I am aware of the inconsistencies in canon, some are age, others are intentionally part of the plot. In either case they make the story hit the mark of silver age sensibilities better so I won't be changing the story as I post it. I accepted a lot of feedback and did plenty of research (a year and a half time wise) after playing the games. The story is what it is, if you don't like it, well, sorry but I'm not changing it.

Ninth, in regards to the adult content stuff, while it isn't directly related I feel that explaining why he's used is important since "Of flesh and Fantasy" is a parody based on swords and sorcery. I use him because of the serious lack of decent male characters in the nasuverse. Shinji is right out for 99.9% of character relationships because well dude is a right douche. I can't use Shiki (god I've tried) because stepping into his shoes is, well, fucking disturbing, he's a great character but I write adult content from the male perspective and last time I tired with Shiki I nearly broke a chair. Even if it were possible, I'd have a seriously difficult time pairing him with anyone but Kohaku. Lancer in similar with respect to Bazzet, I can write him but I just think Bazzet deserves him. Arihiko, Issei, fall short because of a lack of personality outside of friend guy of the main character. The mc from extra is, boy or girl, a player insert, too much of the character is fluid to use. Gilgamesh is well Gilgamesh, no sale sir. Berserker, Zouken and Kirei are all creepy for different reasons and chaos, ewww. So it leaves Shirou and Archer, not a lot of variety or connect to over 70% of the female characters. So I use Satoshi  because I like the three act structure.

Tenth, their are references everywhere in my work, if you don't like that then too bad, bad puns, naming conventions and titles are full of that stuff.

now with this all said I have three final things to say.

1) Until I post the first chapter of the new format please refrain from discussion of the story and characters. I will notify in this thread when it has been posted.

2) there will be a character primer up like the found in comics to index the facts about the characters at the time. That thread is a no post zone, it is for updates by me only to leave a concise index

3) I'll be holding a contest at some point regarding point ten, dunno what the prize will be yet.

ask about the points made for now if you have questions and please be civil.

[Arch-Magos Winter]

Whoo boy so much for me to pick apart piece by piece here... where should I start... I guess with the fact that if your two chapter fanfiction requires a primer, something has gone seriously wrong. Continuing on.

Firstly, I perceive the nasuverse as no different than a comic book, unlike the routes which adhere to the style of the novels this story is treated like a comic book. (Break for a bunch of stuff I can't be fucked at 1 AM to cover with a blanket quote response but mainly this bit is what's pissing me off)

And especially in the case of FSN the main hero follows the western idea of super heroism (we debated the subject back on the proboards) so styling the story like a comic book fits.

And this is your first mistake, and probably the underpinning of why I find most of your work rather irritating to read. You've entirely misinterpreted Shirou's character - he doesn't follow the idea of a Western Hero, you realize. I could link a bunch of stuff Arashi and others debated on the subject, but once more it is 1 AM but I can basically sum this up like this - Shirou doesn't follow the Western Idea of heroism because Nasu really doesn't apply this either. Shirou is a hero far more in the Kamen Rider style than he is in the Superman style, and this is shown.

For that matter you're generalizing far far far more than should be done with comic books. When you're saying that you're going with a very very small subset of comics that the Nasuverse pretty much avoids - superhero comics. In my opinion the Nasuverse is far more in the style of Sandman, or One Hundred Bullets than any Marvel, DC, or Image caped crusader style property. This is a glaring error in your logic that bleeds into your writing with the nasuverse. Styling the Nasuverse after cape comics is missing the damn point of it and the flavor Nasu intended to impart from it.

Read 100 Bullets. Far closer to Nasu than any cape comic I could think of.

On to the second matter. Spoilers, I hate them, I do not see the point in giving them out, the point of a story is to read it. As such, should I tell you it's a spoiler then leave it at that and wait for the answer.

Fair enough, but honestly this is just going to tick most people the fuck off.

Thirdly, insults and disrespectful behavior are not something I will put up with, if you call names, rage post or use the term Mary sue in here your questions will no longer be accepted or answered. This may seems harsh but frankly we are all mature people and as such should be able to discuss things properly.

I wish to state that nearly every time we do become civil you tend to act childish and delete/have someone lock the thread serious criticism is leveled in. I don't understand how you expect to improve as a writer with that sort of attitude. Don't like don't read will murder your improvement chances. Critics aren't evil, just people who dislike a piece of work and say why. They are necessary in any society to inform the consumer of a bad product.

Fourth, the point of fan fiction is fun. If you are just here to nit pick, bitch or criticize then I suggest you go elsewhere.

Once again, discarding criticism just because you dislike it. Nitpicks are important because they can reveal deeper flaws within a work. Enough nits becomes a gaping plot hole.

Fifth, the story is one containing time travel, Multi-dimensional travel and yes a trip to the root. If you can't stand alternate history, time paradoxes or interpretation then get out of dodge now.

I have to say this depends on how you interpret paradox compared to how it should work, and if how you do so doesn't work (See thirdfang's fucking indestructible swords bullshit) then expect to be criticized for it. Warning you right off the bat. This is an aspect that people will show no mercy on when you don't understand how alternate realities would actually work. Spoiler, you seem to not grasp this.

Skipping six because I don't give a fuck, I got through the Illiad.

Seventh, the meaning of my works at large is hope and triumph despite the odds. I enjoy stories where despite the odds the good guys can succeed, where the reader can cheer because the tension means something more than "oh god Kohaku doesn't remember her own name" or such that makes the reader feel like shit. Positivity, in a word, is my theme for this story. Don't like it don't read.

The bittersweet ending is my preferred, because sometimes the heroes can't win, they can only break even. That makes what's gained seem all the sweeter. Your mileage may vary on this one.

Eighth, I am aware of the inconsistencies in canon, some are age, others are intentionally part of the plot. In either case they make the story hit the mark of silver age sensibilities better so I won't be changing the story as I post it. I accepted a lot of feedback and did plenty of research (a year and a half time wise) after playing the games. The story is what it is, if you don't like it, well, sorry but I'm not changing it.

...OK. You are basing your stories direction and style off of the SILVER AGE OF COMICS!?!?!?!?!? I... look, this is unbelievably stupid, considering the Silver Age compared to the Nasuverse tone and content wise. Also, your year of research doesn't matter when you violate all the setting rules, just saying. Refusing to change the story is the sign of a bad author.

Skipping Ninth because I don't give a fuck and when your 'noncanon' material is larger than your canon material it calls into serious question which is the actual canon material.

Tenth, their are references everywhere in my work, if you don't like that then too bad, bad puns, naming conventions and titles are full of that stuff.

Considering that I've seen your past tries at this please stop. If you can't be clever about it then don't do it, and all signs indicate you are not clever about it.

Read some Dresden Files on how to actually reference things like pop culture and do a decent spin with it.

As for the rest I'm too tired to cover that shit at the moment but seriously expecting to have like 10 threads about your shit and being taken seriously is not goin gto happen, if anything it pisses people off more because all the information is not in one place.

I'm also going to be linking the Q&A thread (http://darksidemoon.net/SMF_forum/index.php/topic,204.0.html) you had locked because future readers do deserve to know what's in there and so you can't silence any dissenting voice like you have attempted to in the past. Call this an insult if you like, but previous behavior by yourself indicates that you'll attempt to delete threads you've had locked due to people leveling criticism at you. Merely a precaution in case you attempt to do so as this way there is proof that a thread existed and you did delete it out of an attempt to silence criticism.

[Kat]

Lantz is probably confused by Mirror Moon's translation of seigi no mikata as superhero. He takes the translation at face value and does not bother to take into consideration how Japanese think.

Anyway, lumping Shirou with American comic heroes is a cultural imperialism. Japanese concept of a hero is different from American one. Heck, look at Franco-Belgian comics and see how their heroes are different from capes. The cape is something American only.

Magos is right that of all American comic stuff, Silver Age is most glaringly incompatible with Nasuverse.

See, fanfiction are stories set in established setting. If you go against the core principles of the setting, you are better off to create your own setting unrelated to Nasuverse and write setting. Personally, I want to separate my Nasuverse RPG project and my own homebrew even if some concepts overlap.

[Arch-Magos Winter]

Lantz is probably confused by Mirror Moon's translation of seigi no mikata as superhero. He takes the translation at face value and does not bother to take into consideration how Japanese think.

Anyway, lumping Shirou with American comic heroes is a cultural imperialism. Japanese concept of a hero is different from American one. Heck, look at Franco-Belgian comics and see how their heroes are different from capes. The cape is something American only.

Magos is right that of all American comic stuff, Silver Age is most glaringly incompatible with Nasuverse.

See, fanfiction are stories set in established setting. If you go against the core principles of the setting, you are better off to create your own setting unrelated to Nasuverse and write setting. Personally, I want to separate my Nasuverse RPG project and my own homebrew even if some concepts overlap.

Exactly. It translates better to 'Ally of Justice.' Something more in the style of a kamen rider than a superhero.

[lantzblades]

I am not confused X, I am referring to a discussion where the consensus regarding Shirou was that he follows the western idea of a superhero rather than the ally of justice path. As a result of that discussion the comic book thought fits.

[Arch-Magos Winter]

I am not confused X, I am referring to a discussion where the consensus regarding Shirou was that he follows the western idea of a superhero rather than the ally of justice path. As a result of that discussion the comic book thought fits.

Er, no. It doesn't. Especially not the Silver age. You're very wrong and Arashi has a diatribe on it somewhere.

[lantzblades]

As for your opinion Arch, characters are up for interpretation and this wasn't my sole conclusion, others came to it as well. I have chosen this interpretation for Shirou. Whether or not you like or agree with it is little matter to me. Regardless of your opinion I will write him this way, and a silver age sensibility does not mean what you've inferred.

[Arch-Magos Winter]

I don't see how it could be interpreted any other way considering the very content of Silver Age stories and how they're interpreted, told, and are structured. It's a horrible horrible thing to meld with the Nasuverse in any way.

Your refusal to change your story, as I said before, is the mark of an immature author who cannot write a story. Change is good. Experiment with change, it isn't disrespectful to the people who helped you to come up with the idea to change it around.

[Kat]

Link to the discussion, please. I bet whoever participated in the discussion had no clue of Japanese culture. Just because since Meiji era Japan is an industrialized country and people there tend to wear Western clothes does not mean they are Westerners. Heck, even Central and Eastern Europeans tend to be different from Western Europeans who are different from Americans.

For reference, read Jojos Bizarre Adventure. The mangaka is enamored with French and Italian culture, but he is still Japanese at core, at least in my opinion.

PS. If I refused to change I would not get where I am now when it comes to writing.

[lantzblades]

It was on the proboards X, it's dead, like super dead at this point.

the silver age sensibilities would be in example all star superman, goofy and self aware.

the story is what it is. I won't say it again.

[Kat]

If it is from a dead forums, it does not count at all. Just because a fringe group of fandom thinks like that it does not mean it is consensus.

[lantzblades]

It was on bl X, back when we used the proboards, it is not a fringe. Bottom line is this, I believe Shirou to be interpreted in this way, I will not change my mind on this, period.

[Kat]

Weird, Arashi and others disagree with that, so the consensus must be different altogether.

[Arch-Magos Winter]

Yeah. For that matter, I'd trust Arashi far more on this, someone who actually, you know, knows about Japanese culture.

[Kat]

If someone bothers to spend his precious time on writing a guide on Japanese culture combined with a question corner, I think he is legit. The same with Elf and her lemon guide.

I am too distracted for now with academic work, but I have translation of a guide to Arthurian characters in mind. By and from a viewpoint of fantasy and modern fiction writer, Sapkowski. The guy really, really like the Arthurian lore to the point of mild obsession, so I can trust his research even though he humbly claims actual scholars are better source than him.