General Nasuverse Lore/Character/Serious Canon Discussion Thread

[Alice]

So yeah, for discussion of all the stuff in the thread title, this is the place to do it if you don't have an actual question for the Questions thread. Fire away.

Try to keep the subjects brought up in here serious-ish at least. The occasional silly derail is fine, but try avoiding discussing silly things for the sake of discussing silly things.

[Kat]

Since people are bringing it up everywhere in the internet, I just want to clarify something:

EMIYA is max level Shirou plus any boosts granted by Alaya.

Shirou cannot get stronger than that, simply.

[Alice]

Makes sense to me! I wish more people would remember this, considering all the "Shirou is supah powerful and op!" fics out there.

In addition to those factors, there's also the literally thousands of years of combat experience EMIYA has from being a Counter Guardian. Hell, even Nameless Hero seemed to have this going for him too, despite not being a CG (instead it's likely due to lol Moon Cell.)

Speaking of that, there's also said Nameless Hero to consider of course, but with that, there's a lot of weird Moon Cell stuff involved, and it's unlikely Shirou could achieve that level of power naturally, let alone that of EMIYA (since, as MHX mentioned, EMIYA's buffed by Alaya, and also the combat experience thing).

So yup, EMIYA is Shirou at his absolute strongest, but not necessarily something Shioru himself could achieve naturally in his own lifetime. Shioru's got a lot of hidden potential, but he's not nearly as strong as a lot of people seem to imagine him being.

[lantzblades]

Emiya is theoretically Shirou's max under standard conditions. However that doesn't account the true hero status he supposedly obtains in the LE, it's made rather clear that while the pact and heroic deeds reach the same end in terms of being recorded in the throne it's clear that the latter is evidently stronger than the former.

There's leeway for the variables to change, without considering the many worlds theory which the Nasuverse runs on for it's realities of course.

[The Man With All The Cute Boats]

he becomes a true hero, huh

[Alice]

...lantz, I'm pretty sure that's not how power levels work. Combat prowess and strength don't exactly come through heroism levels, you know. Plus there's no indication whatsoever that Last Ending Shirou is actually stronger than EMIYA. Just worthy enough to (...somehow) make it into Valhalla Avalon.

[The Man With All The Cute Boats]

Well no actually a heroic spirit would be stronger than a vanilla CG because lol legends and whatnot, I just don't remember the bit in LE when they say he became a "true hero".

Then again I read LE a total of once.

then again again heroic spirits can't be added to the throne anymore as per word of god so Shirou can't be a heroic spirit. So yes EMIYA is top Shirou form.

[Alice]

I can agree with that. It's like you said, it's not that a straight up Heroic Spirit isn't stronger than a CG, it's that even though Last Ending Shirou made it into Avalon, there's no indication that he became a Heroic Spirit or, if he did, that there's even any legends surrounding him, given the "noheroicspirtisfromthemodernagelol" stuff Nasu said.

...So basically we're agreeing then. :V Progress!

[Kat]

Emiya is theoretically Shirou's max under standard conditions. However that doesn't account the true hero status he supposedly obtains in the LE, it's made rather clear that while the pact and heroic deeds reach the same end in terms of being recorded in the throne it's clear that the latter is evidently stronger than the former.

LE!Shirou is NOT a Heroic Spirit, likewise Arturia. They are not recorded in Throne of Heroes, but go to Avalon. Shirou got there because of connection to Saber, not because of his power level.

[lantzblades]

Nasu said only heroes can get there and LE Shirou is heavily implied to not have become a CG, far as I'm concerned that closes the book on the idea, he's there, so obviously he's a heroic spirit.

[Arch-Magos Winter]

No no no, Nasu never said anything about only HS's getting allowed into Avalon, and if you're saying otherwise, links. Need links to your interviews.

[lantzblades]

Can't do links even if I cared to prove it. Technical issues. In short, find it yourself.

[Kat]

Burden of proof is on the one who claims, a rule as ancient as ancient Romans. Claiming things without backing them up is not participating in Serious Canon Discussion as in the thread title.

[Cherry Lover]

You're partially right. It's not the case that not being willing or able to find links disqualifies you from participating in the discussion, I've yet to see a link to evidence anywhere in this thread, but it certainly is true that the burden of proof is on the person making the positive claim. It's not reasonable for someone to demand that you prove their argument for them.

[Umbra of Chaos]

Nasu said only heroes can get there and LE Shirou is heavily implied to not have become a CG, far as I'm concerned that closes the book on the idea, he's there, so obviously he's a heroic spirit.

I'm pretty sure that people from the modern era cannot become a HS unless they become CGs. So if only heroes could be there then it is impossible for Shirou to enter Avalon.