General Nasuverse Lore/Character/Serious Canon Discussion Thread

[Kat]

Q: If there are Heroic Spirits like Archer, who was summoned independent of time axis, is it possible for warriors from the future, who are loaded with modern weapons, to be summoned as Servants?

A: Although modern weapons are powerful, it is difficult for the users of modern weapons to be classified as Heroic Spirits. The advantage of modern weapons is "anyone can use them as long as they were trained", thus it is difficult for the user to become a Heroic Spirit, whose definition is "the one and only". The users of modern weapons are faceless heroes. If there are indeed heroes who are loaded with modern weapons, the users will not become Heroic Spirits, as they are merely "experts anyone can achieve through sufficient training". The actual Heroic Spirits being worshiped will be the "greatest weapon of that era". However, for the weapon to become a Heroic Spirit in this case, it must harbour a soul.

Q:　アーチャーのように時間軸に関係なく召喚される英霊がいるならば、近代兵器で身を包んだ未来の戦士なんかもサーヴァントとして召喚されることがあるんでしょうか？

A:　近代兵器は強力ですが、近代兵器をメインとする者は英霊のカテゴリーには含まれづらいです。近代兵器の最たる利点は“鍛えれば誰でも使える”という事。ですが、そうであるが故に“たったひとりの存在”にはなりづらい。
それは顔のない英雄です。近代兵器に身を包んだ英雄がいたとするなら、英霊として扱われるのは“鍛えれば誰でもなれるエキスパート”たる所有者ではなく、“その時代でもっとも優れた兵器”そのものが英霊として祭りあげられるのでは、と。その場合、兵器そのものに魂が宿らなくてはならないのですが。

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Oldest known non-CG Servant we know of is Li Shunwen, and it might be because of lol Mool Cell.

[Brahmastra]

Li Shuwen is a legit Heroic Spirit because he didnt use modern weaponry, and was very much "the only and only" when it came to Bajiquan.

However, it is impossible for Shirou or anyone else of the modern era to become Heroic Spirits without also becoming Counter Guardians. Shirou does not become a Heroic Spirit, nor a Counter Guardian in LE, therefor he is not EMIYA-tier.

[lantzblades]

Yet he does reach it in LE Umbra, I thereby conclude he becomes a heroic spirit because it's evident he's not a CG by the narration. Nasu contradicts himself all over the place anyway in regards to basically everything so without a carved in stone point that he's never wavered on in front of me or the most convincing argument I've ever heard, there's no way I'm budging on this one.

[Brahmastra]

There is literally nothing that says reaching Avalon makes you a Heroic Spirit. It is very likely that he ends there because he had the sheath for 10 years.

[Arch-Magos Winter]

Put short Lantz you are dead wrong.

[Brahmastra]

I wish i could be as conclusive as you, Magos-senpai

[lantzblades]

I did not say that Brah, I said he was a heroic spirit, not that Avalon had anything to do with making him one.

[Brahmastra]

I did not say that Brah, I said he was a heroic spirit, not that Avalon had anything to do with making him one.

And I said that he isn't a Heroic Spirit and Avalon cannot make him one (not how it works), because that is specifically impossible for modern humans. By extension Avalon does not have a tag on the door that says "no non-Heroic Spirits". Only people like Saber or Shirou, who have some connection to one or more Fae artifacts can end there after their respective deaths.

[lantzblades]

I don't buy that, half because Nasu is utterly vague about everything and because Saber was specifically taken there when she died so the bit about artifact connection becomes shaky as a result. In the end Nasu has never been clear so I'll stick with my conclusion. He's a hero and that's that.

[Brahmastra]

I can't back up my claim because I am clearly in the wrong and won't admit it, nor link sources.

.

[Cherry Lover]

Not having sources doesn't make you wrong, it just makes you not provably right. As for the "Hero" thing, whilst I do agree it's unlikely that Shirou would become a proper Heroic Spirit, technically the quote X provided doesn't absolutely rule it out. For one thing, Shirou doesn't use modern technology to fight, at least not entirely (he uses magical swords). And, plus, it says "very difficult", not "impossible". So, whilst I think Lantz is probably wrong, he's entitled to his opinion.

[Brahmastra]

Not having sources doesn't make you wrong, it just makes you not provably right.

And not being provably right makes you wrong, because you aren't right.

As for the "Hero" thing, whilst I do agree it's unlikely that Shirou would become a proper Heroic Spirit, technically the quote X provided doesn't absolutely rule it out.

When Nasu specifically rules out that modern humans cannot be Heroic Spirits, yes. it absolutely rules it out. This will turn into a "Does Gil have X"-type discussion if you ignore word of god.

For one thing, Shirou doesn't use modern technology to fight, at least not entirely (he uses magical swords).

He uses modern magecraft, might as well be the same thing. To be able to be a Heroic Spirit, you must be "the one and only", someone who can defy impossibilities. The problem is that very little is impossible for modern science and magecraft, so the only things really left are the Magics like Aoko's Blue (who still has a 0% chance of becoming a Heroic Spirit). Nothing Shirou does besides his Reality Marble (which, while admittedly impressive, is not HS-tier either) is something only he can do.

Gil is the only man who owned everything, Saber is the only Once and Future King, Karna is the only son of Surya and noblest of the Pandava and so on so forth.

And, plus, it says "very difficult", not "impossible". So, whilst I think Lantz is probably wrong, he's entitled to his opinion.

Being wrong in a discussion of facts means that your opinion is worth nothing.

[Cherry Lover]

Not having sources doesn't make you wrong, it just makes you not provably right.

And not being provably right makes you wrong, because you aren't right.

Erm, no, not being provably right isn't the same thing as not being right at all. It just means you lack evidence to prove your point.

As for the "Hero" thing, whilst I do agree it's unlikely that Shirou would become a proper Heroic Spirit, technically the quote X provided doesn't absolutely rule it out.

When Nasu specifically rules out that modern humans cannot be Heroic Spirits, yes. it absolutely rules it out. This will turn into a "Does Gil have X"-type discussion if you ignore word of god.

Link please.

For one thing, Shirou doesn't use modern technology to fight, at least not entirely (he uses magical swords).

He uses modern magecraft, might as well be the same thing. To be able to be a Heroic Spirit, you must be "the one and only", someone who can defy impossibilities. The problem is that very little is impossible for modern science and magecraft, so the only things really left are the Magics like Aoko's Blue (who still has a 0% chance of becoming a Heroic Spirit). Nothing Shirou does besides his Reality Marble (which, while admittedly impressive, is not HS-tier either) is something only he can do.

Erm, what? I'm not sure how that really fits with what we know of Heroic Spirits (particularly the Hassans).

And, plus, it says "very difficult", not "impossible". So, whilst I think Lantz is probably wrong, he's entitled to his opinion.

Being wrong in a discussion of facts means that your opinion is worth nothing.

Perhaps, but I haven't seen many facts in this thread so far....

[RamKingSpaceSlamKatsulam]

"近代兵器に身を包んだ英雄がいたとするなら、英霊として扱われるのは“鍛えれば誰でもなれるエキスパート ”たる所有者ではなく、“その時代でもっとも優れた兵器”そのものが英霊として祭りあげられるのでは、と"

[Cherry Lover]

Yeah, I can't read that....

Also, where is it from?