Of Swords and Sorcery (Chronological edition discussion)

[lantzblades]

Fair enough Umbra but my other point stands. If the fourth war changes then how can you say he dies in the fifth 100% of the time?

[Kat]

No amount of randomness is going to make Shirou fundamentally evil (without making him "Shirou in name only", anyway) or cause a person to do things they normally wouldn't do (although it can, of course, change who the person is)

Then Lantz has no excuse to make canon characters act OOC, then.

[Cherry Lover]

No amount of randomness is going to make Shirou fundamentally evil (without making him "Shirou in name only", anyway) or cause a person to do things they normally wouldn't do (although it can, of course, change who the person is)

Then Lantz have no excuse to make canon characters act OOC, then.

Well, not entirely, because you could have a version of the character whose upbringing and, therefore, actions are different, or just a version who has the same name but different genes.

[lantzblades]

And if the world is flipped like so many stories do then I have a full reason to change their characterization to fit in line with it.

[Kat]

Then these characters are OCs and in no way true canon characters.

[lantzblades]

You understand nothing about this kind of story then Kat, I think in light of that fact you should probably desist your frequenting of this thread.

[Cherry Lover]

Then these characters are OCs and in no way true canon characters.

They're no more "OCs" than my Sakura, Rider or Shirou in Cross Effects are. Just because their personality developed differently due to circumstances, it doesn't mean they're not still fundamentally the same characters.

[Umbra of Chaos]

Fair enough Umbra but my other point stands. If the fourth war changes then how can you say he dies in the fifth 100% of the time?

Because if there was a possibility then Kotomine would have been in HA. Kirei will never live past the fifth HGW. Avenger confirmed it.

[The Man With All The Cute Boats]

Hollow Ataraxia. Within the dream world Avenger creates he can generate anything no matter how small the chance of it happening is. Kirei is not in HA because he cannot survive after the 5th HGW has ended. If there was a chance of Kirei surviving the HGW than he would be in HA, but he isn't .

"Upon surviving the 4th war, that man was promised certain death on the 5th"
-Avenger

Like Lantz said, what if there is no Grail War, or the 4th War is different?only see one path for that war, it doesn't mean others cannot exist.

One things to understand here:

Context. After the 4th grail war happens as it does in Zero, the fifth is 100% not survivable for him. You can say "Hurr but what if 4th changed," but that's unimportant, because what Avenger is saying up there isn't "COMPLETE AND ALL-ENCOMPASSING STATEMENT" it's "After the 4th grail war(as it actually happened) happened, Kirei can never survive the fifth."

See if "everything is possible" as Lantz decrees with his nerfed pro wrestler TYPEs and... Satoshi's entire birth circumstances, then even with the 4th happening as it did in canon, Kirei would have a way to survive the fifth grail war. Except Nasu, word of god, original author, directly contradicts him and his idea in F/HA.

Therefore everything is not possible.


Also, this thread is absolutely hilarious for all of the wrong reasons, my sides literally split in half, typing from hospital

[Cherry Lover]

Fair enough Umbra but my other point stands. If the fourth war changes then how can you say he dies in the fifth 100% of the time?

Because if there was a possibility then Kotomine would have been in HA. Kirei will never live past the fifth HGW. Avenger confirmed it.

Erm, again, that assumes that the Fourth War never changed. There is no reason whatsoever why the Fourth War couldn't take a path that results in Kotomine never getting anywhere near AM. Avenger's statement is that, given what happened in the Fourth War, Kotomine cannot survive the Fifth. If the Fourth War changes, then there is no reason he cannot.

Once again, you're thinking too rigidly. The Fourth War could go totally differently (see the difference between HF and Fate, for example), and Kotomine could end up getting taken out of the war without doing much at all. To claim that is impossible based on what Avenger said is stupid, because he is working from the basis that the Fourth War is fixed, since if it is not the characters change significantly.

[Umbra of Chaos]

You say the 4th war can change but not how. You've literally said nothing about how it could change other than lol infinite worlds.

[lantzblades]

What you Umbra, Names are preaching is stillness and stagnation. I reject them both as they are the death of creativity. As such this argument becomes pointless. You can drop the point and move on to another subject or leave the thread, please.

[Cherry Lover]

You say the 4th war can change but not how. You've literally said nothing about how it could change other than lol infinite worlds.

Why should I need to? I don't know exactly what can change, just that things can change, and we know from the 5th war that those changes can have a massive effect. Why should the 4th war be any different?

[Umbra of Chaos]

^^I don't think so. I completely support the infinite worlds as lo g as you can back your AU up. I've asked you the questions and you've refused to back up your argument other than saying that infinite worlds says everything is possible so I don't have to explain. That's all I've gotten out of their this because you've offered no way to change the 4th war to ensure Kotomine's survival..

^ I just want an explanation other than it could happen somehow. If I said Samurai could become evil but never mention AM I doubt you would be happy. Youre telling me something can happen without saying how.

[lantzblades]

Kirei fights his nature and becomes a hero.

alternately everyone in Zero grows a brain and avoids the idiot ball required of a prequel.