Cross Effects 3.0 - The Third Time's the Charm? General Discussion

[Milbunk]

Still no ruling on SHIKI?

[Ivan The Mouse]

Alright, Panda, how the hell did you think Yukina would not know how to shoot, when there are two people in the Order who know how guns work and especially when Yukina herself is an engineer and blacksmith?

I'm just using the expression "pulling the trigger" as a matter of common parlance, man. What the hell?

[Kat]

Panda may continue banter with Mordred until Noel/Saber gets there or Yolf bothers to reply with Tar.

[Panda]

Then why did you refer to the shooting method that results in one's aim being thrown off? This was on you, buddy.

I mean, I'd think Yukina would specifically know to squeeze the trigger as opposed to pulling it.

Also, she's going to miss anyway. Just not by as much in this case.

[Ivan The Mouse]

Then why did you refer to the shooting method that results in one's aim being thrown off? This was on you, buddy.

I mean, I'd think Yukina would specifically know to squeeze the trigger as opposed to pulling it.

Also, she's going to miss anyway. Just not by as much in this case.

Because the term referring to the resistance of the trigger is still referred to as "trigger pull". Moreso, squeezing the trigger in this case doesn't apply because the rifle is supported not only the forward hand in the barrel shroud, but also in stock by the shoulder. With that, the rifle wouldn't flinch even when the trigger is "pulled' as opposed to "squeezed" because the whole rifle is steady in her posture.

And one more thing: When he rushed towards Yukina and disarmed her, I felt like that was too fast even for him and didn't give her time to react. As if the whole thing is preemptive already. I mean, come on, flick off the two blades just like that?

In this case, I don't think Michael still has a proper casus belli towards Neo, because what angered him towards Neo was his attitude towards Yukina, more so that Neo already refused on the grounds of drug intoxication. The whole thing looks like a set-up just for Michael to beat down Neo right from the start, especially when the first thing he asked was about his fighting ability when Yukina revealed that Neo is an alchemist. This is evidenced more by the fact that he wants to "knock him down a few pegs" for his personality towards Yukina. And then, when Yukina tries to stop the two men from further attacking Neo, his first reaction is charge towards her and disarm her, instead of just dodging a bullet and being surprised of why she did that. If anything else, if his reason is simply a thirst for battle, he would have challenged Yukina first.

In other words, it is as if Michael was there just to target Neo for his attitude.

[Kaze]

When he rushed towards Yukina and disarmed her, I felt like that was too fast even for him and didn't give her time to react. As if the whole thing is preemptive already.

In this case there legitimately isn't much Yukina can do to resist after having fired her shot. With the reinforcement in place Michael is top-tier supernatural, meaning that even readjusting her aim for another shot will be enough time for Michael to get close.

That said Panda it's usually a good idea to talk such things out between you two if you're going to smash another character around without even the chance of a comeback.

[Panda]

...did you even read the sheet? Michael is pretty much a textbook Blood Knight. He loves to fight. Also, at no point during this is he actually angered. Annoyed, yes, but not angered. And why the hell would he want to fight Yukina? She doesn't look strong at all, and doesn't carry herself as someone who is strong. No fun to fight someone who doesn't even look like they can put up a decent fight. Michael also offered Neo the first shot, and would have held back enough to drag the fight out if Neo had taken it. But no, Neo had to be all prideful and act like his victory against Michael was guaranteed. Thus giving Michael a reason to want to knock Neo down a few pegs, because the next guy Neo mouths off to might not be nearly as kind with regards to making sure he's alive afterwards, so Michael figures it would be best to try to break him of the attitude now.

Also, Michael has a natural dislike of people who resort to recreational drugs (combat drugs are fine), but all of this just added to Michael's already low opinion of Neo's self-preservation instincts. Can't fight back properly if you're drugged up. Unless that's just how you roll, in which case Michael is fine, so long as you can fight well.

As for his reaction to Yukina, she's interfering with the fight. If you'll look carefully, he's about to talk to Lorenzo about coming in out of nowhere on Neo before Yukina comes back with a gun.

[Cherry Lover]

When he rushed towards Yukina and disarmed her, I felt like that was too fast even for him and didn't give her time to react. As if the whole thing is preemptive already.

In this case there legitimately isn't much Yukina can do to resist after having fired her shot. With the reinforcement in place Michael is top-tier supernatural, meaning that even readjusting her aim for another shot will be enough time for Michael to get close.

That said Panda it's usually a good idea to talk such things out between you two if you're going to smash another character around without even the chance of a comeback.

Yeah, whilst it might not be reasonable for Yukina to avoid his attack, he can't dictate how she responds to his actions, only what those actions are. If he thinks there is god-modding going on in the response, then he needs to go talk to a GM about it.

[Ivan The Mouse]

...did you even read the sheet? Michael is pretty much a textbook Blood Knight. He loves to fight. Also, at no point during this is he actually angered. Annoyed, yes, but not angered. And why the hell would he want to fight Yukina? She doesn't look strong at all, and doesn't carry herself as someone who is strong. No fun to fight someone who doesn't even look like they can put up a decent fight. Michael also offered Neo the first shot, and would have held back enough to drag the fight out if Neo had taken it. But no, Neo had to be all prideful and act like his victory against Michael was guaranteed. Thus giving Michael a reason to want to knock Neo down a few pegs, because the next guy Neo mouths off to might not be nearly as kind with regards to making sure he's alive afterwards, so Michael figures it would be best to try to break him of the attitude now.

As for his reaction to Yukina, she's interfering with the fight. If you'll look carefully, he's about to talk to Lorenzo about coming in out of nowhere on Neo before Yukina comes back with a gun.

First, Yukina not being challenged by Michael on the basis of physical appearance goes against Michael's apparent couple of millennia experience. In other words, it is quite possible that he might have encountered someone who looks weak but is actually strong, so why does he quickly assume that Yukina is a weaking simply because of basic appearances? And oh, strong people can be humble too, so why should her apparent demeanor be a basis of her actual strength?

Second, Michael already mention the "knocking down a few pegs" to Neo before he even said something about refusing to make the first move, which is why he was dragged out the Manor in the first place.

Third, if you look from Yukina's perspective, the fight already looks like a 2v1 battle. If Michael doesn't want anyone to interfere with the fight, he would have interfered with Lorenzo beating up on Neo right from the start. But he didn't.

Also, Michael has a natural dislike of people who resort to recreational drugs (combat drugs are fine), but all of this just added to Michael's already low opinion of Neo's self-preservation instincts. Can't fight back properly if you're drugged up. Unless that's just how you roll, in which case Michael is fine, so long as you can fight well.

Again, this is not a matter of self-preservation, because Neo was offered a duel, in which self-preservation isn't a factor at all because duels are a matter of honor, not essential survival. If anything else, Neo only gained more points on self-preservation in this case because he refused to fight him on the basis of drug intoxication. In other words, he was aware that he can't fight while high, so he refused because that would be dangerous for him. But Michael insisted, so Neo offered him something to level the playing field, right before Lorenzo crashed in the manor to attack Neo on the basis of his insults towards Yukina.

[Panda]

First of all, not a couple of millennia, way more. Second, from what he's seen, Yukina doesn't carry herself with any sort of confidence, which is funny as while the Yamato Nadeshiko archetype is supposed to be supportive of their spouse/partner, they also have their own opinions and will not hesitate to make their stance clear. Silk hiding Steel, if you will. Yukina, on the other hand, lacks the Steel from what Michael's seen. No self-confidence = no confidence in fighting ability = no fun to fight. There is a distinct difference between humility and a lack of self-confidence.

As for the knocking him down a few pegs, that idea was first made when Neo refused to apologize, not because he refused to apologize, but because he basically looked at someone who, from Michael perspective, looked way stronger (pissed-off pyromancer swordsman vs unarmed stoned Alchemist at close range, I don't need to tell you how that would go.) and already looked pretty murderous and basically told him to go fuck himself. That level of stupid is not one that Michael will suffer for any longer than he has to. Also note that Michael tried to separate Neo from Lorenzo, granted he wasn't particularly gentle about it. But the fact remains that he doesn't like Lorenzo interfering with the fight. Again, he was about to call Lorenzo out on it, but Yukina tried to shoot him.

And yes, Neo was offered a duel. But the point is not that he happened to be high when the duel was offered, but that he would get high in the first place, when anyone could pop in on the mansion. And Michael wasn't ticked about Neo refusing to fight due to being inebriated, it was because Neo gave the impression that his work on that so-called pancea would be severely set back by a quick spar. (Look at it from his perspective. A few minutes to fight, Neo heals up with a healing potion, which Michael expects that he'll have, due to his knowledge that Neo is an Alchemist, and then Neo can get right back at that cure-all.) The way he put it sounded like he was making excuses for himself, which is annoying.

That aside, Michael was also annoyed that Neo was inebriated in the first place, given that people can just drop into the Manor at anytime. Someone far less nice could potentially end up also in the manor, and if Neo is high at this time, it won't end well at all for him. So yeah, self-preservation instincts are hitting rock-bottom here from what Michael can see.

And Michael also offered to level the playing field. Then Lorenzo arrived and scuppered all of those plans, so Michael decided to make do with what he could get and try to get Neo to sober up, which he did, before actually starting the fight (Throwing him out the door was to separate him from Lorenzo).

That aside, I see your points on the actions against Yukina and have modified my post to have him trying to disarm Yukina and take her down. Though, given that Michael is moving at High Supernatural, he's attacking even faster, and Yukina's agility is human, I doubt she's going to be able to do much about it, especially considering what Kat said earlier.

[Ivan The Mouse]

First of all, not a couple of millennia, way more. Second, from what he's seen, Yukina doesn't carry herself with any sort of confidence, which is funny as while the Yamato Nadeshiko archetype is supposed to be supportive of their spouse/partner, they also have their own opinions and will not hesitate to make their stance clear. Silk hiding Steel, if you will. Yukina, on the other hand, lacks the Steel from what Michael's seen. No self-confidence = no confidence in fighting ability = no fun to fight. There is a distinct difference between humility and a lack of self-confidence.

The first point is moot, although it begs the question for the human brain capacity. At that point, there would be a lot of details that Michael would have forgotten, disregarded or did not see in his life, even if he has a whole lot of experience that amounts to more than two millennia of experiences. In fact, this is the reason why I did not let anyone in the Order become excessively old even as immortals: Human brain capacity, as manifested by their maxim in the Order that you can never see it all. In fact, there would be so many changes in human civilization even at the span of almost 250 years (Rattus' age; Trust me on this because I did research on his whole background story and it was not a walk in the park.) that every experience you have accumulated, barring any human mental limitations, can be rendered useless by any technological innovation that supersedes a certain field of expertise you have. (For example, Rattus is an expert equestrian, owing to his experience as a Hussar officer from the start of Napoleonic Wars until World War 1. Well, there's a reason why he stopped being in the cavalry during WW1, and not because he feels like stopping.) But, I digress...

Second, have you not heard of anyone who weren't confident on themselves on some certain field, and then it turns out that they're actually so talented on it and only needed some shaking up? Well, if Michael has seen a lot in the span of more than two millennia and he has the skill to recall every single thing he saw or remembered, chances are he would have come across that certain kind of person.

As for the knocking him down a few pegs, that idea was first made when Neo refused to apologize, not because he refused to apologize, but because he basically looked at someone who, from Michael perspective, looked way stronger (pissed-off pyromancer swordsman vs unarmed stoned Alchemist at close range, I don't need to tell you how that would go.) and already looked pretty murderous and basically told him to go fuck himself. That level of stupid is not one that Michael will suffer for any longer than he has to. Also note that Michael tried to separate Neo from Lorenzo, granted he wasn't particularly gentle about it. But the fact remains that he doesn't like Lorenzo interfering with the fight. Again, he was about to call Lorenzo out on it, but Yukina tried to shoot him.

Well, Michael did badger Neo on duel while Neo told him off on the basis of being high. That's not stupid, that's being cautious. Neo just particularly happened to be a person of that persuasion where he's dysphemistic regarding his speech, so I thought that's where it started. And again, Lorenzo pummeled Neo for that reason, yet Michael only tried to stop Lorenzo after Neo was dragged out of the Manor. That's already too late for Michael to tell Lorenzo to not intervene.

And yes, Neo was offered a duel. But the point is not that he happened to be high when the duel was offered, but that he would get high in the first place, when anyone could pop in on the mansion. And Michael wasn't ticked about Neo refusing to fight due to being inebriated, it was because Neo gave the impression that his work on that so-called pancea would be severely set back by a quick spar. (Look at it from his perspective. A few minutes to fight, Neo heals up with a healing potion, which Michael expects that he'll have, due to his knowledge that Neo is an Alchemist, and then Neo can get right back at that cure-all.) The way he put it sounded like he was making excuses for himself, which is annoying.

First, disdaining Neo for being high when anyone could pop in the mansion is like disdaining someone who plays video games or doing any recreation when thieves can break into their house anytime. Second, Neo did mention first that he was working on the cure-all but with unsuccessful results, so he decided to take a break by intoxicating himself. That's the time when Neo told him that he refuses to fight on the basis of drug intoxication. In other words, Neo was taking a weed break from his research when he was challenged, so he refused because he was high, which happens to be a break from his panacea work. Michael only got the wrong impression.

That aside, Michael was also annoyed that Neo was inebriated in the first place, given that people can just drop into the Manor at anytime. Someone far less nice could potentially end up also in the manor, and if Neo is high at this time, it won't end well at all for him. So yeah, self-preservation instincts are hitting rock-bottom here from what Michael can see.

Again, this: disdaining Neo for being high when anyone could pop in the mansion is like disdaining someone who plays video games doing any recreation when thieves can break into their house anytime. On that basis, why take sleeping pills at night when you can potentially be invaded during that time? (I'm taking Olanzapine, which functions as a sleeping pill, and there ain't no waking up until it's effects wear off. So yeah.)

And Michael also offered to level the playing field. Then Lorenzo arrived and scuppered all of those plans, so Michael decided to make do with what he could get and try to get Neo to sober up, which he did, before actually starting the fight (Throwing him out the door was to separate him from Lorenzo).

No contest on this.

That aside, I see your points on the actions against Yukina and have modified my post to have him trying to disarm Yukina and take her down. Though, given that Michael is moving at High Supernatural, he's attacking even faster, and Yukina's agility is human, I doubt she's going to be able to do much about it, especially considering what Kat said earlier.

Yeah, I'm just waiting for Franco, since Neo is trying to tackle Lorenzo. (Hint: The whole thing is implicitly suicidal for Neo and he knows it.)

[Panda]

The first point is moot, although it begs the question for the human brain capacity. At that point, there would be a lot of details that Michael would have forgotten, disregarded or did not see in his life, even if he has a whole lot of experience that amounts to more than two millennia of experiences. In fact, this is the reason why I did not let anyone in the Order become excessively old even as immortals: Human brain capacity, as manifested by their maxim in the Order that you can never see it all. In fact, there would be so many changes in human civilization even at the span of almost 250 years (Rattus' age; Trust me on this because I did research on his whole background story and it was not a walk in the park.) that every experience you have accumulated, barring any human mental limitations, can be rendered useless by any technological innovation that supersedes a certain field of expertise you have. (For example, Rattus is an expert equestrian, owing to his experience as a Hussar officer from the start of Napoleonic Wars until World War 1. Well, there's a reason why he stopped being in the cavalry during WW1, and not because he feels like stopping.) But, I digress...

Second, have you not heard of anyone who weren't confident on themselves on some certain field, and then it turns out that they're actually so talented on it and only needed some shaking up? Well, if Michael has seen a lot in the span of more than two millennia and he has the skill to recall every single thing he saw or remembered, chances are he would have come across that certain kind of person.

Yes, he has. He also understands that they're rare enough at Yukina's age (most people will usually figure out what they're good at by then) that he's not going to consider the possibility unless some evidence of this being the case shows itself.

Well, Michael did badger Neo on duel while Neo told him off on the basis of being high. That's not stupid, that's being cautious. Neo just particularly happened to be a person of that persuasion where he's dysphemistic regarding his speech, so I thought that's where it started. And again, Lorenzo pummeled Neo for that reason, yet Michael only tried to stop Lorenzo after Neo was dragged out of the Manor. That's already too late for Michael to tell Lorenzo to not intervene.

Actually, looking back at the posts, Lorenzo didn't drag Neo out of the Manor. Michael tossed him out to separate him from Lorenzo, so yeah.

http://darksidemoon.net/SMF_forum/index.php/topic,505.msg28020.html#msg28020

Lorenzo's post. Take note of the distinct lack of Neo being ejected from the Manor. Thrown onto the floor, yes, but not ejected from the Manor.

http://darksidemoon.net/SMF_forum/index.php/topic,505.msg28022.html#msg28022

Michael's post, wherein Neo is tossed out of the Manor.

Furthermore, note that Michael doesn't actually start the fight until Neo comes down from the high. Once more, tossing him out the door doesn't count, as that was to get him away from Lorenzo.

[Ivan The Mouse]

Yes, he has. He also understands that they're rare enough at Yukina's age (most people will usually figure out what they're good at by then) that he's not going to consider the possibility unless some evidence of this being the case shows itself.

Well, considering that Yukina looks like an 18 year old and she had not revealed herself as an immortal, it is safe to say that Michael could superficially say that she just didn't find the field she is good at yet.

Actually, looking back at the posts, Lorenzo didn't drag Neo out of the Manor. Michael tossed him out to separate him from Lorenzo, so yeah.

http://darksidemoon.net/SMF_forum/index.php/topic,505.msg28020.html#msg28020

Lorenzo's post. Take note of the distinct lack of Neo being ejected from the Manor. Thrown onto the floor, yes, but not ejected from the Manor.

http://darksidemoon.net/SMF_forum/index.php/topic,505.msg28022.html#msg28022

Michael's post, wherein Neo is tossed out of the Manor.

Furthermore, note that Michael doesn't actually start the fight until Neo comes down from the high. Once more, tossing him out the door doesn't count, as that was to get him away from Lorenzo.

Well, I didn't say anything about Lorenzo tossing out Neo. I did say that Michael tossed out Neo, so your two links are irrelevant at this point.

And no, Neo isn't out of the high yet. Nobody just comes out of the high just like that. Take it from me and my experiences regarding being a patient.

[Panda]

...Ivan, how the heck do you design sheathes/blades that can resist someone trying to remove them from their sheathes? I mean, the only way he would have tried is by catching the end of the staff on the guard of the blade and flicking it out that way, so unless those weapons don't have guards...

[Knick]

Kat or Franco, its your turn in the clusterfuck.