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[Alice]

You're using that argument to protect a story that began with a girl and a woman being the only two to die on screen, the woman being fed to the male lead, and then the male lead going on a masculine and manly adventure to save the poor helpless womens. And then you went and claimed that this was unavoidable because the majority of the Nasuverse cast is female.

So no, I don't think that argument is valid here. At all.

[Arch-Magos Winter]

Considering the number of people who could have seen through obfuscate I think that assuming the invisibility working automatically is a bit unfair.

Lancer, Forest, Rider, Ruby, Satoshi and Tsukasa all have skill enough to detect the invisible as well as Rin and Connor.

just pointing it out

Do I have to bring up the game stuff? I think I do.

The vampire can turn his predatory aura inwards, walking through crowds of people who pay him no heed. As long as he doesn’t do anything to obviously draw attention to himself, nobody notices him. He’s just one more person on the street, part of the city’s nightlife. People don’t shy away from him because of what he’s wearing or what he looks like. He’s just as much a fixture of the city as the rats and the graffiti.
Cost: None
Dice Pool: None
Action: Instant
Duration: Scene
For the rest of the scene, people’s eyes just slide off the vampire. People can tell that someone’s there, but they don’t remember who he is or what he looks like; he’s just “some guy,” average height and build, average hair, average clothes. Unless the vampire’s doing something to draw people’s attention — pulling a gun, or screaming at people — or he’s in a place where someone doesn’t expect anyone else to be, everyone around him ignores him. They don’t care what he’s carrying; he could walk down the street with an assault rifle strapped across his back or a body slung over his shoulder, and as long as he doesn’t use it to draw attention, nobody particularly cares or remembers.
If the vampire is violent towards someone — if he punches someone or starts feeding in a crowded subway station — his victim will automatically notice. If he’s doing something that would draw attention, including but not limited to being violent, everyone around him must make a reflexive Wits + Composure roll to notice the commotion, penalized by the vampire’s Obfuscate dots. The vampire’s predatory aura seemingly disappears, so that other vampires can’t sense it.

Basically, you know someone's there but you just don't give a shit about him. It's how Obsfucate works. It isn't invisibility as much as the vampire making himself simply not noticeable. He's there, but you really don't care he is, or even really noticed. For that matter, I doubt that any of your characters would be able to notice him because it isn't a violent action, isn't drawing attention to himself, and isn't hostile. He's just there. Obsfucate isn't invisibility, but it's close enough for most purposes.

Plus, Sashimi and his cult haven't dealt with Kindred before. They've got nothing to work with regarding Jack.

I think the way they decided Forest was part of their family based on the fact that she saved Sakura is a bit weird (I mean, all she was doing was being a good person), but the rest seems pretty fine really.

And, yeah, whilst I'm not going to say the obsfucate could definitely be detected, I think it is unfair to assume it cannot be. Your abilities are not going to be completely foolproof.

Right, but in this situation there's no real reason to assume it wouldn't work, simply due to how the power works. If there's more people around, the more effective it is going to be in some ways.

You're using that argument to protect a story that began with a girl and a woman being the only two to die on screen, the woman being fed to the male lead, and then the male lead going on a masculine and manly adventure to save the poor helpless womens. And then you went and claimed that this was unavoidable because the majority of the Nasuverse cast is female.

So no, I don't think that argument is valid here. At all.

This is a good point.

[Cherry Lover]

You're using that argument to protect a story that began with a girl and a woman being the only two to die on screen, the woman being fed to the male lead, and then the male lead going on a masculine and manly adventure to save the poor helpless womens. And then you went and claimed that this was unavoidable because the majority of the Nasuverse cast is female.

So no, I don't think that argument is valid here. At all.

Yes, actually, it is entirely valid here. In fact, it proves my damn point entirely. Just because the two people shown to die are a young child who happens to be female and a woman who is the least powerful of all the adult characters around that does not make it sexist. You could genderflip all of the characters and I don't see any reason to believe Lantz would have written the story any differently.

And, well, yes, if the majority of the cast is female you'd expect the majority of the people dying to be female too, that makes logical sense. Particularly when the only men around are ones who can fight back more effectively than just about anyone else. And, Lantz has explained his reasons for doing it that way, reasons which have bugger all to do with gender, either explicitly or implicitly. Shirou couldn't be shown dying because he would have fought back more effectively (due to UBW) and that would have given Toshi time to get everyone else out. And Archer was just plain not there, because it's not his house.

I'm not saying the scene in question was perfectly written, but it was not sexist. Just because a woman dies it does not make the damn story sexist, and nor does having a male lead make it sexist. Half of the damn population is male, it is not shocking that stories have male leads.

I'm not saying such sexism does not exist, at all, but you cannot say "oh, Lantz uses a male lead who goes off on an adventure to save everyone (which, yes, includes Shirou, who I believe did die off-screen) therefore Lantz is sexist". If we were to follow your logic then all main heroes would have to be female and all characters who got killed off for plot reasons would have to be male.

Basically, you know someone's there but you just don't give a shit about him. It's how Obsfucate works. It isn't invisibility as much as the vampire making himself simply not noticeable. He's there, but you really don't care he is, or even really noticed. For that matter, I doubt that any of your characters would be able to notice him because it isn't a violent action, isn't drawing attention to himself, and isn't hostile. He's just there. Obsfucate isn't invisibility, but it's close enough for most purposes.

Plus, Sashimi and his cult haven't dealt with Kindred before. They've got nothing to work with regarding Jack.

I would expect a bunch of magi, heroic spirits etc. to be more resistant than most to such mental manipulation, though. Not being violent helps, yes, but I just think you should have given us the chance to argue it first.

[Alice]

That's the thing though, Mike. No male characters die on screen. The two main, traumatic deaths are both women. That's what god damn Women in Refrigerators is. It reduces women to mere plot devices in the most terrible way possible. The fact that it's a man that has to save a cast full of strong women capable of saving themselves makes it a thousand times worse.

And... so it was just fucking Shirou that died. That proves my point. That's one man that died vs a multitude of women. One. And his death was fucking off screen. Don't you get why that's sexist at all?!

[Cherry Lover]

That's the thing though, Mike. No male characters die on screen. The two main, traumatic deaths are both women. That's what god damn Women in Refrigerators is.

One of them is a young child. Gender is irrelevant there, it's always going to be traumatic. The other one is female, yes, but that was not because Lantz was being sexist, it's just what logically fit with the story idea. And even if you were picking genders entirely randomly there would be a 25% chance of both killed characters being female. That is hardly proof of sexism.

It is definitely an example of the "stuffing someone in a refrigerator" trope, but that is a trope because it works, and in itself it is not sexist. It is sexist if you choose females to die because they're female, yes, but that is not remotely the case here. Sakura was the target because Lantz felt she was the most logical target, not because she was a female and females are more disposable. And she's not even out of the story, either, so you can't even really claim she's just "stuffed in a refrigerator".

It reduces women to mere plot devices in the most terrible way possible.

Except that they're not just "plot devices", and they do show up later.

The fact that it's a man that has to save a cast full of strong women capable of saving themselves makes it a thousand times worse.

They're not capable of defeating Gil, though. And, it wouldn't be much of a story if they were. That's not sexism, it's just a requirement for the plot to work. The characters being female is entirely incidental to that.

And... so it was just fucking Shirou that died. That proves my point. That's one man that died vs a multitude of women. One. And his death was fucking off screen. Don't you get why that's sexist at all?!

The family (living in that house, which is the relevant thing here since that's where Gil went) only contains one damn man, excluding the main hero who obviously can't die because then you wouldn't have a story. Unless you're expecting Lantz to invent male characters solely to fulfill your male death quota then, no, I don't get why that is remotely sexist in your eyes.

[Arch-Magos Winter]

Mike, Alice is correct here - the main, emotional impactful deaths we see on screen are women. THat is what Women in Refrigerators is, and I'm surprised that Lantz hasn't realized this considering that the term was coined by a rather nasty Green Lantern comic where his girlfriend was killed, and the body stuffed in the fridge by the villain, which finally convinced Green Lantern to actually act like Green Lantern.

There's also the Hawkeye Inititive which is someone's quest to joke about how badly comic artists understand female anatomy.

I would expect a bunch of magi, heroic spirits etc. to be more resistant than most to such mental manipulation, though. Not being violent helps, yes, but I just think you should have given us the chance to argue it first.

It isn't mental manipulation, at least from how I read it. It's simply the Vampire suppressing himself to the point where he's basically a nonentity. It's not illusion exactly, and once again, Jack's done nothing to make himself noticeable.

Put short it isn't magic.

[Cherry Lover]

I'm well aware that such a thing exists and is not a good thing. However, that does not mean that every example of a female character dying is automatically bad and sexist regardless of the circumstances. The existance of a general trend does not mean that every example is bad, because to claim so results in an equally bad alternative trend.

Ideally an author should write the story as realistically as possible without gender affecting their decisions, and if they do that or make an honest attempt at doing it then they are not being sexist, even if it results in more women dying than men or things like rape happening. Because the real world is not perfect.

[Arch-Magos Winter]

While every example doesn't need to be bad, the point of Women in Fridges is that the vast majority of the time, like in Lantz's case, it is. It's completely glossed over in his story - despite being forcefed a Sakuratini with extra blood, blended not raw, Suetoshi doesn't seem to actually at all give a shit about what just happened, and continues on like something that should have left him a quivering brainless mess on the floor didn't even happen.

So yes, it is Women in Fridges, because not only does it only serve as a poorly done plotpoint to make the hero go do something (A requirement for Women in Fridges) it also glosses entirely over the fact and the story continues like this very traumatizing and disturbing incident, which should have gotten more screentime, never ever happened.

[Cherry Lover]

Well, you can argue about how well it is written, sure. I just don't think that it is evidence of Lantz being sexist. Satoshi clearly does care, and Lantz has made it clear when asked that he cares a lot, the fact that that isn't conveyed to you when reading is an issue with the story itself and not any indication of Lantz being sexist.

[lantzblades]

Numerous male characters die on screen, Satoshi doesn't remember them yet because they were rather traumatic and his mind is, well, fucking broken as shit.

it's not sexist because the female characters aren't plot devices. It boils down to, as usual Alice not paying attention to the details just so she can complain and bitch at me.

it's not about gender it's about family. It's not women in refrigerators at all. This is the basic idea of village burns down a hero is born type story with the bad guys being cruel as fuck

[Alice]

...Fuck this crap, I think I'll just walk. If this type of shit is supported so openly around here, I don't know why I'm still here. I refuse to endorse it. Even worse is that Mike knows full well that this is something that gets under my skin. I've had it. Mike's made his choice on this matter quite clear it would seem...

Also, lantz. Warning number two. Try me.

[Cherry Lover]

Alice, I do not support sexism. I just do not think that having a male main character or killing off a female character makes a story sexist.

[Arch-Magos Winter]

Numerous male characters die on screen, Satoshi doesn't remember them yet because they were rather traumatic and his mind is, well, fucking broken as shit.

it's not sexist because the female characters aren't plot devices. It boils down to, as usual Alice not paying attention to the details just so she can complain and bitch at me.

it's not about gender it's about family. It's not women in refrigerators at all. This is the basic idea of village burns down a hero is born type story with the bad guys being cruel as fuck

The village is a plot device, because it's only purpose is to show how EBVIL GUYZ the villains are. So yes, you are using the deaths as a plot device, and honestly if you aren't showing that Suetoshi is torn up about this, then he isn't. From a first person perspective, we shouldn't need to be told by the author outside the story how a character feels at the moment - its something that's fucking PART OF THE PERSPECTIVE. So yes, it is Women in Refridgerators because it is a) A plot device, b) The deaths serve no purpose other than to call the hero to action, c) both victims on screen are female, raped (because rape only happens to women right guys!), and then killed in front of the male hero, and d) The Male hero shows no emotion about the deaths beyond "That just happened."

So yes, it is fucking Wimmen in Freezers. It fits all the requirements for it and then a few extra for good measure.

Alice, I do not support sexism. I just do not think that having a male main character or killing off a female character makes a story sexist.

It isn't. But, when in this context it is pretty clearly sexist. That's the problem. It's about the context here.

[Aiden]

Jesus H. Christ, you guys.

[lantzblades]

Whatever Alice. This isn't the place for the discussion in the first place. Your warning has no grounds, I'm not sexist nor is my writing, end of story

Arch, seriously stop. No matter how much you moan it won't change my mind, the Chan way of doing things doesn't work.