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[Cherry Lover]

Possessing one outside the war is still pretty impressive, as is getting one to actually show the levels of loyalty Rider shows (which, as others have pointed out, is really extreme).

[Knick]

Not impressive really.

It just means you have ample energy.

And Zouken could synthesize loyalty with that using a combination of command seals and magical contracts, would be hard and would probably never do it (cause really it is pointless to him, why do you need loyalty from a weapon, like a gun or sword, as long as you can properly wield them), but possible.

How do you think he made Sakura into a perfect magus mentally as well as insuring her loyalty. Trust me it was not easy. Her mind was surprisingly resilient to change.

[Cherry Lover]

Wow, so he literally mind-controlled her into obedience?

He is really quite an asshole....

[Knick]

Not mind control.

He just, what word am I looking for, applied to right leverage to alter the fundamental ways she thinks a bit. The lotalty thing was more like "you will not betray me or the Matou." Can't have his heir going rebel for a stupid reason after all.

I mean normal Sakura would make a shit heir, not the right attitude. He needed to fix that to ensure he could win the Grail war and prevent AMs release as well as ensure the Matou would live on at the same time.

Also, never said he was a "nice" person. He just not a monster.

[Brahmastra]

It says something when Knick's Zouken is probably still the best grandparent the Nasuverse has ever seen.

[Knick]

Bishi Zouken is best grandpa.

Also if Sakura had broken the loyalty contract and betrayed them she would have bascily lost the ability to act independently. Then Zouken would manipulate her into producing a child with the first suitable man she could seduce. Hopefully leading to the birth of a suitable heir he can raise since childhood and mold them how he sees fit.

[Daiki]

Not mind control.

He just, what word am I looking for, applied to right leverage to alter the fundamental ways she thinks a bit. The lotalty thing was more like "you will not betray me or the Matou." Can't have his heir going rebel for a stupid reason after all.

Sakura was never meant to be heir, only a womb for the next Matou generation. He experimented on her and made her a fake Lesser Grail. Nobody would risk that with the next in line.

[Umbra of Chaos]

It says something when Knick's Zouken is probably still the best grandparent the Nasuverse has ever seen.

What about Raiga?

[Kat]

>A yandere melting a city full of innocents during a peacetime for a waifu -> Good

>Allies trying to desperately end WW2 without killing tens of millions people more -> EVIL

That's basically the stance of you-know-who.

[Knick]

Daiki, this is an AU Zouken with a different thought process. He basically intended the same think Tokiomi did when he let Zouken have Sakura.

And if ya see my other post it goes into his fail safes he had planned just in case something went wrong.

I have been thinking about this back story for a while now. Originally it had a lot of holes but I think I have generally patched them up.

[Cherry Lover]

Not mind control.

He just, what word am I looking for, applied to right leverage to alter the fundamental ways she thinks a bit. The lotalty thing was more like "you will not betray me or the Matou." Can't have his heir going rebel for a stupid reason after all.

I mean normal Sakura would make a shit heir, not the right attitude. He needed to fix that to ensure he could win the Grail war and prevent AMs release as well as ensure the Matou would live on at the same time.

What do you mean by "the right leverage"?

Also, never said he was a "nice" person. He just not a monster.

Honestly, that is pretty monstrous....

It says something when Knick's Zouken is probably still the best grandparent the Nasuverse has ever seen.

I dunno, I think Taiga's grandfather is better. He might be Yakuza, but Shirou hasn't killed him yet, so he can't be that bad, and Taiga is not bad-off at all.

Bishi Zouken is best grandpa.

Also if Sakura had broken the loyalty contract and betrayed them she would have bascily lost the ability to act independently. Then Zouken would manipulate her into producing a child with the first suitable man she could seduce. Hopefully leading to the birth of a suitable heir he can raise since childhood and mold them how he sees fit.

Yeah, that is downright evil. She is essentially a slave. Not as badly-treated as in canon, but still a slave.

Sakura was never meant to be heir, only a womb for the next Matou generation. He experimented on her and made her a fake Lesser Grail. Nobody would risk that with the next in line.

Normal Sakura, no, but this Zouken is different.

>A yandere melting a city full of innocents during a peacetime for a waifu -> Good

>Allies trying to desperately end WW2 without killing tens of millions people more -> EVIL

That's basically the stance of you-know-who.

Please point out where I called Rider "good". I think that, in a D&D sense, she is probably Chaotic Neutral (she's not evil because she doesn't actively want to harm people).

[Kat]

I dunno, I think Taiga's grandfather is better. He might be Yakuza, but Shirou hasn't killed him yet, so he can't be that bad, and Taiga is not bad-off at all.

You really want Shirou go on murder spree? WTF?

[Knick]

Still less monstrous then canon soul rot Zouken. I mean Sakura will never probably be truly happy, but then again she also does not become an abomination that has to deal with the guilt of almost ending the world (if she does not have that guilt then she really deserves to not be happy anyway).

And by right leverage I mean using magical contacts and magecraft to dig himself into the right spot in her mind to rebuild it from the ground up. Surprisingly simple really. Although her resilience was annoying. Not like she knows he did this, and not like he would ever tell her. That could jeopardize her stability.

[Cherry Lover]

I dunno, I think Taiga's grandfather is better. He might be Yakuza, but Shirou hasn't killed him yet, so he can't be that bad, and Taiga is not bad-off at all.

You really want Shirou go on murder spree? WTF?

No, but I doubt he'd be quite so friendly with someone who he knew was a murderer. Shirou has no issue killing clear bad guys, after all.

Still less monstrous then canon soul rot Zouken.

Well, sure, but that is not exactly a high bar....

I mean Sakura will never probably be truly happy, but then again she also does not become an abomination that has to deal with the guilt of almost ending the world (if she does not have that guilt then she really deserves to not be happy anyway).

Well, she does feel somewhat guilty, but it isn't actually her fault in any way, so she can mostly bury the guilt, and just try to atone for the damage she did do as best as she can. Honestly, I think she would be entirely justified in not feeling guilty, she did nothing wrong, but I know that any remotely decent human being who was in that situation would find it difficult to accept that, and Sakura was no exception.

And by right leverage I mean using magical contacts and magecraft to dig himself into the right spot in her mind to rebuild it from the ground up. Surprisingly simple really. Although her resilience was annoying. Not like she knows he did this, and not like he would ever tell her. That could jeopardize her stability.

I see, so he basically changes her into a different person using mind-alteration? Yeah, that's pretty horrendous....

[Kat]

No, but I doubt he'd be quite so friendly with someone who he knew was a murderer. Shirou has no issue killing clear bad guys, after all.

In HF his girlfriend basically ate hundreds of people, so he can be friendly with people with issues.