General Nasuverse Lore/Character/Serious Canon Discussion Thread

[Brahmastra]

Where does it say that modern people absolutely cannot become Heroic Spirits? I know it's difficult, yes, but impossible?

Q: If there are Heroic Spirits like Archer, who was summoned independent of time axis, is it possible for warriors from the future, who are loaded with modern weapons, to be summoned as Servants?

A: Although modern weapons are powerful, it is difficult for the users of modern weapons to be classified as Heroic Spirits. The advantage of modern weapons is "anyone can use them as long as they were trained", thus it is difficult for the user to become a Heroic Spirit, whose definition is "the one and only". The users of modern weapons are faceless heroes. If there are indeed heroes who are loaded with modern weapons, the users will not become Heroic Spirits, as they are merely "experts anyone can achieve through sufficient training". The actual Heroic Spirits being worshiped will be the "greatest weapon of that era". However, for the weapon to become a Heroic Spirit in this case, it must harbour a soul.

Taken directly from the Comptiq special issue Fate Dojo.

Yes, it only says "difficult", but it also goes out of it's way to point out that it's less the hero that is worshiped and more his weapon, he is just a faceless hero. A faceless hero will not get worshipped, for nothing he has is special, whereas Heroic Spirits are specifically the ones capable of the seemingly impossible and therefor worshiped and remembered by mankind. Whereas Counter Guardians like EMIYA just have to sign a contract that binds them to Alaya post-death.

[Cherry Lover]

That only says "it is difficult for a hero using modern weapons", though. "Difficult =/= impossible", and Shirou could plausibly become a Hero without ever using modern weaponry (and his RM is unique).

I'm not saying it's likely that Shirou would become a HS, it certainly isn't, but Lantz is right that, if it is possible, there probably does exist a universe somewhere in which it happened. I'm not yet entirely sure on the "is it possible" thing, honestly.

[Brahmastra]

That only says "it is difficult for a hero using modern weapons", though. "Difficult =/= impossible", and Shirou could plausibly become a Hero without ever using modern weaponry.

Borrowing other people's claim to legends doesn't work either, because that would be rationalized as his ungodly powerful equipment that doesn't belong to him.

[Cherry Lover]

Perhaps but, even so, I don't think there is anything which makes it outright impossible for Shirou to become a HS. Damn unlikely, sure, but not impossible.

[Alice]

In terms of LE, where lantz claimed it happened though, there's no evidence that he did become an HS whatsoever, all the other stuff aside. That's the main point being fought here.

[Brahmastra]

Perhaps but, even so, I don't think there is anything which makes it outright impossible for Shirou to become a HS. Damn unlikely, sure, but not impossible.

Swinging around other legend's claim to fame is just empowering those instead of his own. Without that, Shirou has literally nothing outstanding about him. He's nothing special physically, has garbage circuits, and while he may have a Reality Marble, so do many others of the modern world, and therefor that is not enough. Therefor, he has nothing at all that could ever mark him as a legend, and that makes it an impossibility.

[Arch-Magos Winter]

Yes.

The time period.

Basically put, it's impossible because his equipment will be the stuff that gets the invite. Not him, especially with Shirou's power set (use of other people's shit).

[RamKingSpaceSlamKatsulam]

Quote shit son.

It does preclude owners, as it calls the hypothetical future warrior loaded with modern weapons the "owner", who cannot become a Heroic Spirit. I left it out because the sentence would be super long and confusing if I threw everything in there.
"近代兵器に身を包んだ英雄がいたとするなら、英霊として扱われるのは“鍛えれば誰でもなれるエキスパート ”たる所有者ではなく、“その時代でもっとも優れた兵器”そのものが英霊として祭りあげられるのでは、と"

Basically, it is "if your claim to fame is modern weapon, you are not worthy to be a Heroic Spirit".

e: if someone says this is only about modern weapons and Shirou le trace it says 'owner.'

[Cherry Lover]

In terms of LE, where lantz claimed it happened though, there's no evidence that he did become an HS whatsoever, all the other stuff aside. That's the main point being fought here.

Yeah, I'd definitely agree with that.

Yes.

The time period.

Basically put, it's impossible because his equipment will be the stuff that gets the invite. Not him, especially with Shirou's power set (use of other people's shit).

Erm, no, because Shirou's weapons aren't "modern weaponry", so that logic doesn't really apply at all.

Quote shit son.

It does preclude owners, as it calls the hypothetical future warrior loaded with modern weapons the "owner", who cannot become a Heroic Spirit. I left it out because the sentence would be super long and confusing if I threw everything in there.
"近代兵器に身を包んだ英雄がいたとするなら、英霊として扱われるのは“鍛えれば誰でもなれるエキスパート ”たる所有者ではなく、“その時代でもっとも優れた兵器”そのものが英霊として祭りあげられるのでは、と"

Basically, it is "if your claim to fame is modern weapon, you are not worthy to be a Heroic Spirit".

e: if someone says this is only about modern weapons and Shirou le trace it says 'owner.'

Well, the "modern weapon" bit doesn't preclude Shirou, but the "owner" thing seems likely to in general. However, re-using someone else's weapon is not an absolute bar to being a hero given that several weapons are shown by Gil to be descended from older legends, and Shirou's Reality Marble is at least unique in concept.

I think it is unlikely, definitely, I'm not 100% certain it would be outright impossible. I could see a situation in which Shirou's ability to use his RM and the weapons in it in a unique manner could be enough to class him as a "hero".

[Arch-Magos Winter]

Even if they aren't modern weaponry the point is that they aren't his. He's tracing them. That's it. They're copies.

[Cherry Lover]

Even if they aren't modern weaponry the point is that they aren't his. He's tracing them. That's it. They're copies.

Sure, but that isn't what you said. The time period has nothing to do with it.

The fact that he's using other people's weapons certain does seem to make it unlikely he can become a Heroic Spirit. However, there is enough "uniqueness" there that I could just about buy someone saying that he had if they gave a really good justification of it.

[lantzblades]

If you guys want to believe Shirou's goal is impossible then go ahead. I for one prefer there to be actual meaning in a story and running a marathon just to get kneecapped before the finish is a poor meaning at best and pointless at worst.

[Arch-Magos Winter]

Welcome to life Lantz.


And in a way, he does succeed at his dream in Fate - he finds Saber again. So it isn't ALL bad.

[Alice]

... lantz, what does that have to do with anything in this discussion? Besides, you can be a hero without becoming a Heroic Spirit, geez. You just can't be summoned as a Servant. Plus there's still plenty of meaning.

 ...Albeit not in Last Episode because it's pure wish fulfillment happy ending stuff, but for F/SN as a whole? There was more than enough. More so for the likes of UBW and HF in my opinion, but since that's more personal opinion than anything, it can be taken with a grain of salt. 

[Kat]

Becoming a Heroic Spirit in LE is counterproductive for both Arturia and Shirou since Heroic Spirits and Counter Guardians are both frozen in the Throne outside the time. Interpersonal communication as in LE would be impossible.