Cross Effects: Rebirth (2.0) Discussion Page (OOC).

[Knick]

As a quick note. Medea herself does not have a rank in Magecraft. Because what she does is not modern magecraft which is what the skill means.

She uses HSDW, which by its very nature makes her superior to all modern magi. She simply speaks and an effect actualizes.

It is something that modern humans cannot do anymore, its mystery far outstrips modern shit, hell its mystery is probably on the level of true magic because of how old it is.

Medea is not a standard you should hold to anyone about level of magecraft. Because what she does is something so impossibly far from modern magecraft it simply resembles it in result.

Hell, even other casters that don't have HSDW would be hard pressed to be even close to Medea on mystery, because HSDW is better. That's all it is.

[Cherry Lover]

It is something that modern humans cannot do anymore, its mystery far outstrips modern shit, hell its mystery is probably on the level of true magic because of how old it is.

Medea is not a standard you should hold to anyone about level of magecraft. Because what she does is something so impossibly far from modern magecraft it simply resembles it in result.

Hell, even other casters that don't have HSDW would be hard pressed to be even close to Medea on mystery, because HSDW is better. That's all it is.

Yes, hence why she has a servant level stat in it, whereas modern magi have human level stats. Saying "a modern magus can't reach that level" is kind-of missing the point of the servant/mortal stat distinction. Yes, I know a modern magus can't reach that level, which is why we have servant-level stats in order to rank those who can.

[Brahmastra]

Yes, hence why she has a servant level stat in it, whereas modern magi have human level stats. Saying "a modern magus can't reach that level" is kind-of missing the point of the servant/mortal stat distinction. Yes, I know a modern magus can't reach that level, which is why we have servant-level stats in order to rank those who can.

EMIYA is a very modern magus, is pretty garbage at magecraft, and has C- Servant Magecraft.

Lorelei is a modern magus with an Age of Gods bloodline, super special Barthomeloi-only circuits who pimpsmacks DAA with Magecraft, and according to you that doesn't even reach Servant level.

Good. Glad I understand your logic (I don't)

[Cherry Lover]

Yes, hence why she has a servant level stat in it, whereas modern magi have human level stats. Saying "a modern magus can't reach that level" is kind-of missing the point of the servant/mortal stat distinction. Yes, I know a modern magus can't reach that level, which is why we have servant-level stats in order to rank those who can.

EMIYA is a very modern magus, is pretty garbage at magecraft, and has C- Servant Magecraft.

Lorelei is a modern magus with an Age of Gods bloodline, super special Barthomeloi-only circuits who pimpsmacks DAA with Magecraft, and according to you that doesn't even reach Servant level.

Good. Glad I understand your logic (I don't)

EMIYA doesn't have C- servant magecraft, he has C- human magecraft. If you take EMIYA as a baseline, then the mortal/servant distinction is utterly irrelevant.

[Brahmastra]

EMIYA doesn't have C- servant magecraft, he has C- human magecraft. If you take EMIYA as a baseline, then the mortal/servant distinction is utterly irrelevant.

EMIYA is a Servant with a C- rank in Magecraft. That's why it's called C- Servant Magecraft. There's no two ways about it.

[Cherry Lover]

EMIYA doesn't have C- servant magecraft, he has C- human magecraft. If you take EMIYA as a baseline, then the mortal/servant distinction is utterly irrelevant.

EMIYA is a Servant with a C- rank in Magecraft. That's why it's called C- Servant Magecraft. There's no two ways about it.

Then why bother even having a servant scale for magecraft when it is identical to the human scale?

[Kat]

Then why bother even having a servant scale for magecraft when it is identical to the human scale?

From what I gathered there are no seperate scales for Servant and human magecraft. Those A rank spells Medea tosses around are on the same level as those used by Rin through her best gems, it's only matter of quantity in this case. Medea could spam, Rin not.

[Knick]

There shouldn't be. Mainly because a "Average human", which is what C-rank human stats mean in this system, has no ability in magecraft what so ever.

[Kat]

Magecraft is something worthy a single unified system, divorced of what describes here physical stats of humans or Servants and equivalent.

[Alice]

I'm still wondering how this got off Kuro's stuff and onto Lorelei's sheet this hard.

Also, Knick, your most recent statement is really confusing me. You mean what EMIYA is ranked at, which isn't actually human level stats unless for magecraft it's the exact same thing, and why do you say that they would have no ability in magecraft? EMIYA's really shitty at magecraft that doesn't have to do with UBW or isn't reinforcement/projection, but he can at least do it. Am I reading something wrong?

...Also, does this mean I have to go back and redo magic stats for my sheets?

[YOLF]

You know, I still stand by the thought that this would all be much easier if Magic Ability and Magic Resistence were not stats you had to specify as being in the Human or Servant scale.

Especially given how goddamn subjective they are. But that's mostly Magic Ability.

I agree with Kat on this matter.

[Cherry Lover]

There shouldn't be. Mainly because a "Average human", which is what C-rank human stats mean in this system, has no ability in magecraft what so ever.

The problem with that is that it makes mortal magecraft ranks completely useless. Basic common sense and logic means that average magecraft means average for a human magus, not average for a human full stop.

[YOLF]

Honestly, I just think two scales for Magic Ability is redundant. Not only because it is a subjective enough thing that it always requires a detailed explanation anyways (since not everyone has magic and those that do vary significantly), but because having two scales invites confusion and stupid arguments like this.

An example of the way I would see it: Rin would have A magic ability, because within the magic system she uses (modern Magecraft) she is good enough overall to qualify as a top user in every way that counts. But Medea would also have A or A+ because within her magic system (High Speed Divine Words and Age Of The Gods Magecraft), she is also that powerful.

Yet Medea is a more powerful magic user than Rin because they way they use magecraft is inherently different. There are things Medea can do that Rin simply cannot. Just as there are things... say, Uchiten can do, that Dunkelzahn can not and vice-versa (because of one being an original character with a loose and powerful magic system, and the other from an existing setting that also has very powerful magic with unique uses, but also very strict limits).

Now, this kind of difference is something that has to be specified in the explanation of the character's magic ability following the rank. And that's a thing that already benefits from detail, so it's not really as hard as that.

[Cherry Lover]

Honestly, I just think two scales for Magic Ability is redundant. Not only because it is a subjective enough thing that it always requires a detailed explanation anyways (since not everyone has magic and those that do vary significantly), but because having two scales invites confusion and stupid arguments like this.

An example of the way I would see it: Rin would have A magic ability, because within the magic system she uses (modern Magecraft) she is good enough overall to qualify as a top user in every way that counts. But Medea would also have A or A+ because within her magic system (High Speed Divine Words and Age Of The Gods Magecraft), she is also that powerful.

Yet Medea is a more powerful magic user than Rin because they way they use magecraft is inherently different. Now, this kind of difference is something that has to be specified in the explanation of the character's magic ability following the rank. And that's a thing that already benefits from detail, so it's not really as hard as that.

I think ranking it based on the system makes sense, yes, but in that case it shouldn't be treated as a base stat, because base stats are common to all characters and directly comparable between them, whereas what you're suggesting isn't. I would say that Magical Ability should be removed from the stat list entirely, and then added by the player if their character actually possesses some form of magic, with a proper explanation (which is not expected for stats) of what exactly it means.

[YOLF]

I suppose that's a possible way to do it if changing the way it's done now is actually necessitated by never ending arguments.