Dark Side of the Moon
Type Moon => General Discussion => Topic started by: Alice on April 16, 2014, 05:16:21 AM
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So yeah, for discussion of all the stuff in the thread title, this is the place to do it if you don't have an actual question for the Questions thread. Fire away.
Try to keep the subjects brought up in here serious-ish at least. The occasional silly derail is fine, but try avoiding discussing silly things for the sake of discussing silly things.
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Since people are bringing it up everywhere in the internet, I just want to clarify something:
EMIYA is max level Shirou plus any boosts granted by Alaya.
Shirou cannot get stronger than that, simply.
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Makes sense to me! I wish more people would remember this, considering all the "Shirou is supah powerful and op!" fics out there.
In addition to those factors, there's also the literally thousands of years of combat experience EMIYA has from being a Counter Guardian. Hell, even Nameless Hero seemed to have this going for him too, despite not being a CG (instead it's likely due to lol Moon Cell.)
Speaking of that, there's also said Nameless Hero to consider of course, but with that, there's a lot of weird Moon Cell stuff involved, and it's unlikely Shirou could achieve that level of power naturally, let alone that of EMIYA (since, as MHX mentioned, EMIYA's buffed by Alaya, and also the combat experience thing).
So yup, EMIYA is Shirou at his absolute strongest, but not necessarily something Shioru himself could achieve naturally in his own lifetime. Shioru's got a lot of hidden potential, but he's not nearly as strong as a lot of people seem to imagine him being.
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Emiya is theoretically Shirou's max under standard conditions. However that doesn't account the true hero status he supposedly obtains in the LE, it's made rather clear that while the pact and heroic deeds reach the same end in terms of being recorded in the throne it's clear that the latter is evidently stronger than the former.
There's leeway for the variables to change, without considering the many worlds theory which the Nasuverse runs on for it's realities of course.
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he becomes a true hero, huh
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...lantz, I'm pretty sure that's not how power levels work. Combat prowess and strength don't exactly come through heroism levels, you know. Plus there's no indication whatsoever that Last Ending Shirou is actually stronger than EMIYA. Just worthy enough to (...somehow) make it into
Valhalla Avalon.
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Well no actually a heroic spirit would be stronger than a vanilla CG because lol legends and whatnot, I just don't remember the bit in LE when they say he became a "true hero".
Then again I read LE a total of once.
then again again heroic spirits can't be added to the throne anymore as per word of god so Shirou can't be a heroic spirit. So yes EMIYA is top Shirou form.
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I can agree with that. It's like you said, it's not that a straight up Heroic Spirit isn't stronger than a CG, it's that even though Last Ending Shirou made it into Avalon, there's no indication that he became a Heroic Spirit or, if he did, that there's even any legends surrounding him, given the "noheroicspirtisfromthemodernagelol" stuff Nasu said.
...So basically we're agreeing then. :V Progress!
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Emiya is theoretically Shirou's max under standard conditions. However that doesn't account the true hero status he supposedly obtains in the LE, it's made rather clear that while the pact and heroic deeds reach the same end in terms of being recorded in the throne it's clear that the latter is evidently stronger than the former.
LE!Shirou is NOT a Heroic Spirit, likewise Arturia. They are not recorded in Throne of Heroes, but go to Avalon. Shirou got there because of connection to Saber, not because of his power level.
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Nasu said only heroes can get there and LE Shirou is heavily implied to not have become a CG, far as I'm concerned that closes the book on the idea, he's there, so obviously he's a heroic spirit.
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No no no, Nasu never said anything about only HS's getting allowed into Avalon, and if you're saying otherwise, links. Need links to your interviews.
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Can't do links even if I cared to prove it. Technical issues. In short, find it yourself.
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Burden of proof is on the one who claims, a rule as ancient as ancient Romans. Claiming things without backing them up is not participating in Serious Canon Discussion as in the thread title.
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You're partially right. It's not the case that not being willing or able to find links disqualifies you from participating in the discussion, I've yet to see a link to evidence anywhere in this thread, but it certainly is true that the burden of proof is on the person making the positive claim. It's not reasonable for someone to demand that you prove their argument for them.
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Nasu said only heroes can get there and LE Shirou is heavily implied to not have become a CG, far as I'm concerned that closes the book on the idea, he's there, so obviously he's a heroic spirit.
I'm pretty sure that people from the modern era cannot become a HS unless they become CGs. So if only heroes could be there then it is impossible for Shirou to enter Avalon.
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Q: If there are Heroic Spirits like Archer, who was summoned independent of time axis, is it possible for warriors from the future, who are loaded with modern weapons, to be summoned as Servants?
A: Although modern weapons are powerful, it is difficult for the users of modern weapons to be classified as Heroic Spirits. The advantage of modern weapons is "anyone can use them as long as they were trained", thus it is difficult for the user to become a Heroic Spirit, whose definition is "the one and only". The users of modern weapons are faceless heroes. If there are indeed heroes who are loaded with modern weapons, the users will not become Heroic Spirits, as they are merely "experts anyone can achieve through sufficient training". The actual Heroic Spirits being worshiped will be the "greatest weapon of that era". However, for the weapon to become a Heroic Spirit in this case, it must harbour a soul.
Q: アーチャーのように時間軸に関係なく召喚される英霊がいるならば、近代兵器で身を包んだ未来の戦士なんかもサーヴァントとして召喚されることがあるんでしょうか？
A: 近代兵器は強力ですが、近代兵器をメインとする者は英霊のカテゴリーには含まれづらいです。近代兵器の最たる利点は“鍛えれば誰でも使える”という事。ですが、そうであるが故に“たったひとりの存在”にはなりづらい。
それは顔のない英雄です。近代兵器に身を包んだ英雄がいたとするなら、英霊として扱われるのは“鍛えれば誰でもなれるエキスパート”たる所有者ではなく、“その時代でもっとも優れた兵器”そのものが英霊として祭りあげられるのでは、と。その場合、兵器そのものに魂が宿らなくてはならないのですが。
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Oldest known non-CG Servant we know of is Li Shunwen, and it might be because of lol Mool Cell.
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Li Shuwen is a legit Heroic Spirit because he didnt use modern weaponry, and was very much "the only and only" when it came to Bajiquan.
However, it is impossible for Shirou or anyone else of the modern era to become Heroic Spirits without also becoming Counter Guardians. Shirou does not become a Heroic Spirit, nor a Counter Guardian in LE, therefor he is not EMIYA-tier.
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Yet he does reach it in LE Umbra, I thereby conclude he becomes a heroic spirit because it's evident he's not a CG by the narration. Nasu contradicts himself all over the place anyway in regards to basically everything so without a carved in stone point that he's never wavered on in front of me or the most convincing argument I've ever heard, there's no way I'm budging on this one.
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There is literally nothing that says reaching Avalon makes you a Heroic Spirit. It is very likely that he ends there because he had the sheath for 10 years.
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Put short Lantz you are dead wrong.
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I wish i could be as conclusive as you, Magos-senpai
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I did not say that Brah, I said he was a heroic spirit, not that Avalon had anything to do with making him one.
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I did not say that Brah, I said he was a heroic spirit, not that Avalon had anything to do with making him one.
And I said that he isn't a Heroic Spirit and Avalon cannot make him one (not how it works), because that is specifically impossible for modern humans. By extension Avalon does not have a tag on the door that says "no non-Heroic Spirits". Only people like Saber or Shirou, who have some connection to one or more Fae artifacts can end there after their respective deaths.
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I don't buy that, half because Nasu is utterly vague about everything and because Saber was specifically taken there when she died so the bit about artifact connection becomes shaky as a result. In the end Nasu has never been clear so I'll stick with my conclusion. He's a hero and that's that.
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I can't back up my claim because I am clearly in the wrong and won't admit it, nor link sources.
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Not having sources doesn't make you wrong, it just makes you not provably right. As for the "Hero" thing, whilst I do agree it's unlikely that Shirou would become a proper Heroic Spirit, technically the quote X provided doesn't absolutely rule it out. For one thing, Shirou doesn't use modern technology to fight, at least not entirely (he uses magical swords). And, plus, it says "very difficult", not "impossible". So, whilst I think Lantz is probably wrong, he's entitled to his opinion.
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Not having sources doesn't make you wrong, it just makes you not provably right.
And not being provably right makes you wrong, because you aren't right.
As for the "Hero" thing, whilst I do agree it's unlikely that Shirou would become a proper Heroic Spirit, technically the quote X provided doesn't absolutely rule it out.
When Nasu specifically rules out that modern humans cannot be Heroic Spirits, yes. it absolutely rules it out. This will turn into a "Does Gil have X"-type discussion if you ignore word of god.
For one thing, Shirou doesn't use modern technology to fight, at least not entirely (he uses magical swords).
He uses modern magecraft, might as well be the same thing. To be able to be a Heroic Spirit, you must be "the one and only", someone who can defy impossibilities. The problem is that very little is impossible for modern science and magecraft, so the only things really left are the Magics like Aoko's Blue (who still has a 0% chance of becoming a Heroic Spirit). Nothing Shirou does besides his Reality Marble (which, while admittedly impressive, is not HS-tier either) is something only he can do.
Gil is the only man who owned everything, Saber is the only Once and Future King, Karna is the only son of Surya and noblest of the Pandava and so on so forth.
And, plus, it says "very difficult", not "impossible". So, whilst I think Lantz is probably wrong, he's entitled to his opinion.
Being wrong in a discussion of facts means that your opinion is worth nothing.
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Not having sources doesn't make you wrong, it just makes you not provably right.
And not being provably right makes you wrong, because you aren't right.
Erm, no, not being provably right isn't the same thing as not being right at all. It just means you lack evidence to prove your point.
As for the "Hero" thing, whilst I do agree it's unlikely that Shirou would become a proper Heroic Spirit, technically the quote X provided doesn't absolutely rule it out.
When Nasu specifically rules out that modern humans cannot be Heroic Spirits, yes. it absolutely rules it out. This will turn into a "Does Gil have X"-type discussion if you ignore word of god.
Link please.
For one thing, Shirou doesn't use modern technology to fight, at least not entirely (he uses magical swords).
He uses modern magecraft, might as well be the same thing. To be able to be a Heroic Spirit, you must be "the one and only", someone who can defy impossibilities. The problem is that very little is impossible for modern science and magecraft, so the only things really left are the Magics like Aoko's Blue (who still has a 0% chance of becoming a Heroic Spirit). Nothing Shirou does besides his Reality Marble (which, while admittedly impressive, is not HS-tier either) is something only he can do.
Erm, what? I'm not sure how that really fits with what we know of Heroic Spirits (particularly the Hassans).
And, plus, it says "very difficult", not "impossible". So, whilst I think Lantz is probably wrong, he's entitled to his opinion.
Being wrong in a discussion of facts means that your opinion is worth nothing.
Perhaps, but I haven't seen many facts in this thread so far....
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"近代兵器に身を包んだ英雄がいたとするなら、英霊として扱われるのは“鍛えれば誰でもなれるエキスパート ”たる所有者ではなく、“その時代でもっとも優れた兵器”そのものが英霊として祭りあげられるのでは、と"
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Yeah, I can't read that....
Also, where is it from?
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Well I'll just say this as my last point. Nasu has said all ends are canon, this coupled with the second magic existing means that the Nasuverse runs on the many worlds interpretation. And as such, because with every variable creating a new universe anything is possible, the simplest conclusion is that regardless of canonical accuracy every theory is evidently true in principle.
In short Nasu's greater fact makes the smaller ones irrelevant in the grand scheme. At least for my purposes anyway.
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In short Nasu's greater fact makes the smaller ones irrelevant in the grand scheme. At least for my purposes anyway.
Fanon is not canon.
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Well I'll just say this as my last point. Nasu has said all ends are canon, this coupled with the second magic existing means that the Nasuverse runs on the many worlds interpretation. And as such, because with every variable creating a new universe anything is possible, the simplest conclusion is that regardless of canonical accuracy every theory is evidently true in principle.
In short Nasu's greater fact makes the smaller ones irrelevant in the grand scheme. At least for my purposes anyway.
Infinite is not all the same as all encompassing. Impossibilities will remain impossibilities across the multiverse unless there's a good argument for the contrary.
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Okay, then, since lantz isn't quite getting the point, I'm going to link what the Fate/Stay Night LP has documented for Last Episode:
http://lparchive.org/Fatestay-night/Update%20397/ (http://lparchive.org/Fatestay-night/Update%20397/)
Reading it somewhat carefully, there's no real indication here that Shirou ever became a HS. Or even got in there for any sort of heroism. If anything, if I'm reading this right, a lot of it had to do with the fact that Saber wished reeeeeeaaaaaalllly hard for Shirou to be there with her, and after several long journeys on his part, bam, Avalon. There's not really anything substantive here in terms of world building so much. It's mostly "here's your happy end, Seiba fans!"
Possibly I'm reading some of the Shirou journeying bits wrong, in terms of him doing heroic things. But I can confirm that there's nothing about Shirou becoming a Heroic Spirit or Heroic Spirits being able to enter Avalon in here.
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Well I'll just say this as my last point. Nasu has said all ends are canon, this coupled with the second magic existing means that the Nasuverse runs on the many worlds interpretation. And as such, because with every variable creating a new universe anything is possible, the simplest conclusion is that regardless of canonical accuracy every theory is evidently true in principle.
In short Nasu's greater fact makes the smaller ones irrelevant in the grand scheme. At least for my purposes anyway.
Actually, Many-Worlds QM doesn't quite work like that. What it means is that, when a quantum random event occurs, every possible outcome of that event occurs in one universe. Now, because life is inherently chaotic in nature and because quantum fluctuations can have some significant large-scale effects (genetic mutations, for example), you can manage to get quite substantial changes out of that, but you can't change the laws the world runs by, or cause people to do things they are simply incapable of doing or would never choose to do (you can, of course, cause them to be a different person entirely, but then it's not them doing it any more).
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Impossible is defined by physics, change physics or the other variables and you change what is possible. So I'm still right, anything is possible. And that is just awesome
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So I'm still right, anything is possible.
That's an impossibility. For one thing to happen an unsurmountable amount of other things must not happen.
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...lantz, I'd think you of all people would know that Mike's an astrophysicist. If anyone would know about how physics work, it'd be him.
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Impossible is defined by physics, change physics or the other variables and you change what is possible. So I'm still right, anything is possible. And that is just awesome
Well, no, anything that is not physically possible in the universe in question is certainly not possible in said universe. And, at least some of the people in this thread have argued it is literally impossible for Shirou to become a HS however hard he tries.
However, as long as there is some set of quantum fluctuations that could cause it to happen then it could happen, yes. That is a fairly broad statement, yes (although not an infinitely broad one, there has to be some way that random events could cause Shirou to follow that path) but it is limited somewhat further if we're requiring it be Fate Shirou specifically (there are less possible variations available in that case since the change has to start later).
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Nothing is impossible, word of god confirms it, end of story. Far as I'm concerned I don't actually have to prove anything thanks to Nasu.
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Again, that is simply not true. At absolute most, Many-Worlds theory means that anything that is possible will happen in some universe (and even that isn't certain, because there has to be some set of quantum events that could lead to it). It certainly does not make the impossible possible. Even if you have an infinite number of worlds, something that has literally zero chance of happening will still happen in none of them.
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Nothing is impossible, word of god confirms it, end of story. Far as I'm concerned I don't actually have to prove anything thanks to Nasu.
I'd like a source please. Unless of course that source is deeply incriminating upon your personal life, your Ctrl+c/ctrl+v doesnt work or just doesnt exist.
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Again, that is simply not true. At absolute most, Many-Worlds theory means that anything that is possible will happen in some universe (and even that isn't certain, because there has to be some set of quantum events that could lead to it). It certainly does not make the impossible possible. Even if you have an infinite number of worlds, something that has literally zero chance of happening will still happen in none of them.
Well for becoming a HS Shirou would have to do something important enough to become a legend. He would also need to have been lived during the time Jack the Ripper, Li, or the AoG since modern day people cannot become HS. Even people with completely unique abilities or magecraft like Zeltretch or Aoko cannot be HS and Tracing is not on the level of the True Magics.
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Where does it say that modern people absolutely cannot become Heroic Spirits? I know it's difficult, yes, but impossible?
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MHX posted it earlier:
http://darksidemoon.net/SMF_forum/index.php/topic,371.msg13910.html#msg13910 (http://darksidemoon.net/SMF_forum/index.php/topic,371.msg13910.html#msg13910)
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Where does it say that modern people absolutely cannot become Heroic Spirits? I know it's difficult, yes, but impossible?
Q: If there are Heroic Spirits like Archer, who was summoned independent of time axis, is it possible for warriors from the future, who are loaded with modern weapons, to be summoned as Servants?
A: Although modern weapons are powerful, it is difficult for the users of modern weapons to be classified as Heroic Spirits. The advantage of modern weapons is "anyone can use them as long as they were trained", thus it is difficult for the user to become a Heroic Spirit, whose definition is "the one and only". The users of modern weapons are faceless heroes. If there are indeed heroes who are loaded with modern weapons, the users will not become Heroic Spirits, as they are merely "experts anyone can achieve through sufficient training". The actual Heroic Spirits being worshiped will be the "greatest weapon of that era". However, for the weapon to become a Heroic Spirit in this case, it must harbour a soul.
Taken directly from the Comptiq special issue Fate Dojo.
Yes, it only says "difficult", but it also goes out of it's way to point out that it's less the hero that is worshiped and more his weapon, he is just a faceless hero. A faceless hero will not get worshipped, for nothing he has is special, whereas Heroic Spirits are specifically the ones capable of the seemingly impossible and therefor worshiped and remembered by mankind. Whereas Counter Guardians like EMIYA just have to sign a contract that binds them to Alaya post-death.
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That only says "it is difficult for a hero using modern weapons", though. "Difficult =/= impossible", and Shirou could plausibly become a Hero without ever using modern weaponry (and his RM is unique).
I'm not saying it's likely that Shirou would become a HS, it certainly isn't, but Lantz is right that, if it is possible, there probably does exist a universe somewhere in which it happened. I'm not yet entirely sure on the "is it possible" thing, honestly.
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That only says "it is difficult for a hero using modern weapons", though. "Difficult =/= impossible", and Shirou could plausibly become a Hero without ever using modern weaponry.
Borrowing other people's claim to legends doesn't work either, because that would be rationalized as his ungodly powerful equipment that doesn't belong to him.
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Perhaps but, even so, I don't think there is anything which makes it outright impossible for Shirou to become a HS. Damn unlikely, sure, but not impossible.
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In terms of LE, where lantz claimed it happened though, there's no evidence that he did become an HS whatsoever, all the other stuff aside. That's the main point being fought here.
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Perhaps but, even so, I don't think there is anything which makes it outright impossible for Shirou to become a HS. Damn unlikely, sure, but not impossible.
Swinging around other legend's claim to fame is just empowering those instead of his own. Without that, Shirou has literally nothing outstanding about him. He's nothing special physically, has garbage circuits, and while he may have a Reality Marble, so do many others of the modern world, and therefor that is not enough. Therefor, he has nothing at all that could ever mark him as a legend, and that makes it an impossibility.
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Yes.
The time period.
Basically put, it's impossible because his equipment will be the stuff that gets the invite. Not him, especially with Shirou's power set (use of other people's shit).
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Quote shit son.
It does preclude owners, as it calls the hypothetical future warrior loaded with modern weapons the "owner", who cannot become a Heroic Spirit. I left it out because the sentence would be super long and confusing if I threw everything in there.
"近代兵器に身を包んだ英雄がいたとするなら、英霊として扱われるのは“鍛えれば誰でもなれるエキスパート ”たる所有者ではなく、“その時代でもっとも優れた兵器”そのものが英霊として祭りあげられるのでは、と"
Basically, it is "if your claim to fame is modern weapon, you are not worthy to be a Heroic Spirit".
e: if someone says this is only about modern weapons and Shirou le trace it says 'owner.'
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In terms of LE, where lantz claimed it happened though, there's no evidence that he did become an HS whatsoever, all the other stuff aside. That's the main point being fought here.
Yeah, I'd definitely agree with that.
Yes.
The time period.
Basically put, it's impossible because his equipment will be the stuff that gets the invite. Not him, especially with Shirou's power set (use of other people's shit).
Erm, no, because Shirou's weapons aren't "modern weaponry", so that logic doesn't really apply at all.
Quote shit son.
It does preclude owners, as it calls the hypothetical future warrior loaded with modern weapons the "owner", who cannot become a Heroic Spirit. I left it out because the sentence would be super long and confusing if I threw everything in there.
"近代兵器に身を包んだ英雄がいたとするなら、英霊として扱われるのは“鍛えれば誰でもなれるエキスパート ”たる所有者ではなく、“その時代でもっとも優れた兵器”そのものが英霊として祭りあげられるのでは、と"
Basically, it is "if your claim to fame is modern weapon, you are not worthy to be a Heroic Spirit".
e: if someone says this is only about modern weapons and Shirou le trace it says 'owner.'
Well, the "modern weapon" bit doesn't preclude Shirou, but the "owner" thing seems likely to in general. However, re-using someone else's weapon is not an absolute bar to being a hero given that several weapons are shown by Gil to be descended from older legends, and Shirou's Reality Marble is at least unique in concept.
I think it is unlikely, definitely, I'm not 100% certain it would be outright impossible. I could see a situation in which Shirou's ability to use his RM and the weapons in it in a unique manner could be enough to class him as a "hero".
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Even if they aren't modern weaponry the point is that they aren't his. He's tracing them. That's it. They're copies.
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Even if they aren't modern weaponry the point is that they aren't his. He's tracing them. That's it. They're copies.
Sure, but that isn't what you said. The time period has nothing to do with it.
The fact that he's using other people's weapons certain does seem to make it unlikely he can become a Heroic Spirit. However, there is enough "uniqueness" there that I could just about buy someone saying that he had if they gave a really good justification of it.
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If you guys want to believe Shirou's goal is impossible then go ahead. I for one prefer there to be actual meaning in a story and running a marathon just to get kneecapped before the finish is a poor meaning at best and pointless at worst.
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Welcome to life Lantz.
And in a way, he does succeed at his dream in Fate - he finds Saber again. So it isn't ALL bad.
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... lantz, what does that have to do with anything in this discussion? Besides, you can be a hero without becoming a Heroic Spirit, geez. You just can't be summoned as a Servant. Plus there's still plenty of meaning.
...Albeit not in Last Episode because it's pure wish fulfillment happy ending stuff, but for F/SN as a whole? There was more than enough. More so for the likes of UBW and HF in my opinion, but since that's more personal opinion than anything, it can be taken with a grain of salt.
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Becoming a Heroic Spirit in LE is counterproductive for both Arturia and Shirou since Heroic Spirits and Counter Guardians are both frozen in the Throne outside the time. Interpersonal communication as in LE would be impossible.
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Besides, you can be a hero without becoming a Heroic Spirit, geez. You just can't be summoned as a Servant.
Yeah, this.
Shirou's life goal has never been "become a heroic spirit", he just wants to be a hero. The two are not the same thing, as can be seen by the number of modern heroes who wouldn't count. He can still quite easily fulfill his goal in life without ending up as a heroic spirit, and not ending up as a heroic spirit does not mean he has "failed", because Shirou was never looking for recognition, he just wants to be able to save people.
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Whether not Shirou becomes a Heroic Spirit has literally nothing to do with the story, it's meaning or Shirou's goal. Therefor, why bother?
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A good example of MODERN Heroic Spirit would be Enola Gay, the very first bomber ever to drop a nuke.
Expect a huge fame boost when summoned in Japan :p
Apollo 11 could be a Heroic Spirit as well. Along with Sputnik.
Since in the modern age it is technology that makes stuff possible for people, not their individual prowess, it is natural that there is no human non-CG Heroic Spirits anymore.
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Well, that isn't necessarily the case, though. A modern magus could still realistically do things through their own prowess, they just choose not to.
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But using magecraft is exactly like using technology. Both achieve things possible in the grand scheme of things.
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Yeah, but killing someone with an Excaliblast is also doing something which is possible in other ways. Saber still counts as a Heroic Spirit.
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Excalibur is a Divine Construct made by fae, as well as Avalon. And she is a human from early Age of Man.
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Yeah, but killing someone with an Excaliblast is also doing something which is possible in other ways. Saber still counts as a Heroic Spirit.
You are seriously implicating that killing people and not the swinging-fae-blade-that-can-shoot-giant-blasts-of-kinetic-prana around and fae-sheath-of-i-ignore-your-stuff-because-lol is why Saber is a Heroic Spirit? Seriously? I hate Saber and all but that is so far off.
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My point is that the argument "well, they didn't achieve the impossible" is stupid because no-one really "achieves the impossible". They just achieve the really-damn-unlikely....
And, Saber possessing a powerful sword and scabbard isn't why she's in the Throne. If it was then it would be the sword taking the place. She herself has to have done something with the sword in order to be eligible.
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She was also the king of Britain, gets a prophecy about her returning, saved said kingdom several times, and fought wars along with her knights. Shirou just doesn't have the ability to pull off something that legendary. Unless he goes and solos Primate Murder where enough people can see him to start the legend he isn't getting anywhere.
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Damn right. Besides, for example Shiki won't be HS even if he killed goddamn Nero. Shirou cannot top that.
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Well, it's a matter of secrecy. To be a Heroic Spirit, you have to be known about, and Shiki isn't. I think it is unlikely that Shirou would become well-known enough to do it, but not necessarily impossible (if some sort of big magical war were to happen, for example). And, as Lantz has pointed out previously, if something is possible, however unlikely, then the fact that the Nasuverse is a Multiverse means that it probably has happened somewhere.
I'm not saying that Shirou has become a HS somewhere, but I don't think we can absolutely 100% rule it out. It's just not something that is likely to happen very often if at all.
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I'm not saying that Shirou has become a HS somewhere, but I don't think we can absolutely 100% rule it out. It's just not something that is likely to happen very often if at all.
All the points I, Umbra and X have listed for the last 2 pages rule it out 100%. Nothing Shirou does is in any way special. He's just good at Projection and is in a situation where he can abuse that to repeatedly make legendary weaponry.
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Well, it's a matter of secrecy. To be a Heroic Spirit, you have to be known about, and Shiki isn't. I think it is unlikely that Shirou would become well-known enough to do it, but not necessarily impossible (if some sort of big magical war were to happen, for example). And, as Lantz has pointed out previously, if something is possible, however unlikely, then the fact that the Nasuverse is a Multiverse means that it probably has happened somewhere.
I'm not saying that Shirou has become a HS somewhere, but I don't think we can absolutely 100% rule it out. It's just not something that is likely to happen very often if at all.
Sure. In some reality maybe the AoG lasted longer and Shirou became a HS that way but it wouldn't be Emiya Shirou. Wouldn't be the kid that participated in the 5th GW. Even if there was a full blown war there are still people there are many people in the Nasuverse more important and famous than Shirou. There is nothing unique or original about Shirou other than his RM and there are several people with that as well. In fact even UBW is copying other weapons. Nothing about him is unique enough to be HS material.
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There being other people who are more important or famous than Shirou doesn't necessarily mean Shirou cannot become a hero above them. Most heroes in the real world are not important prior to becoming a hero.
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There being other people who are more important or famous than Shirou doesn't necessarily mean Shirou cannot become a hero above them. Most heroes in the real world are not important prior to becoming a hero.
Mike do you literally just ignore every point that goes against your argument?
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No, I just don't think it is true that Shirou (in his normal form) could absolutely never become a Heroic Spirit, and I don't think anything that has been said proves that. Unlikely, sure, but not impossible.
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Mike, every HS that isn't a CG is a super speshul snowflake. Saber has a dragon core along with prana burst and almost everyone else is a demigod. Even Sasaki who isn't even an actual HS can break reality with sheer skill. There isn't a lot that's unique to Shirou. Certainly not enough to make him a HS.
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No, I just don't think it is true that Shirou (in his normal form) could absolutely never become a Heroic Spirit, and I don't think anything that has been said proves that. Unlikely, sure, but not impossible.
Even when presented with repeated and conclusive proof of it being impossible?
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I don't think you've proven it's impossible, merely very unlikely. "Impossible" is a very strong statement to make. It's not strictly-speaking impossible for me to spontanously teleport through a wall, just astoundingly unlikely.
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Mike the situation might as well be identical. The chance is so infinitesimal that you can just call it impossible. Unless you start to teleport I have no reason to believe that Shirou has any chance of becoming a HS. There is also the fact that you have offered almost no proof to back up your claims other than the fact that Nasu said it was really difficult instead of impossible.
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He has no fame, no noteworthy abilities, no powerful items that belong to him, no physics-breaking physical abilities, absolutely nothing. Therefor he has nothing that can make him a HS. When you have nothing that can make you a HS, being a HS without being a CG is impossible.
Is that simple enough for you?
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Mike the situation might as well be identical. The chance is so infinitesimal that you can just call it impossible. Unless you start to teleport I have no reason to believe that Shirou has any chance of becoming a HS. There is also the fact that you have offered almost no proof to back up your claims other than the fact that Nasu said it was really difficult instead of impossible.
Actually, given the context of the argument, the difference between "infinitesimal" and "zero" matters a lot. Due to the nature of many-worlds QM, if it is correct then there does exist a universe in which I teleported through a wall. Sure, we're never going to see it, but it is out there.
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But Mike you know the events that might happen that could make you teleport correct? But there is literally nothing you've said that would even give Emiya Shirou a chance to be a HS.
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Mike the situation might as well be identical. The chance is so infinitesimal that you can just call it impossible. Unless you start to teleport I have no reason to believe that Shirou has any chance of becoming a HS. There is also the fact that you have offered almost no proof to back up your claims other than the fact that Nasu said it was really difficult instead of impossible.
Actually, given the context of the argument, the difference between "infinitesimal" and "zero" matters a lot. Due to the nature of many-worlds QM, if it is correct then there does exist a universe in which I teleported through a wall. Sure, we're never going to see it, but it is out there.
So we've given runes, Q&A, comprehendable logic following the nasuverse's rules. You've given us one word, "difficult".
I am literally just gonna throw my hands in the air, close this tab and declare myself the winner of this argument, because you're being denser than a neutron star.
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But Mike you know the events that might happen that could make you teleport correct? But there is literally nothing you've said that would even give Emiya Shirou a chance to be a HS.
Yeah, and I'm willing to accept that it may well be literally impossible, I'm just not 100% convinced it is.
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Let us put this in simple terms than. Shirou's very nature stops him from being a HS. He's copying the weapons of others which isn't unique. This is necessary for him to be Shirou and makes the idea of him being accepted as a HS low already. He must be born in modern times. This also lowers the chance even farther. To my knowledge Projection/Tracing still fall under modern magecraft which lowers the chances even more. Something that sparks a magical war would probably get Shirou killed. If he survives he still has a low chance of becoming a HS because of the results of the confilct. Shirou would have to use tracing to survive and help others if there was a magical war going on. Do you really think humanity would revere someone who is a member of the people that almost certainly caused massive devastation to them? This is also ignoring the fact that a magical war would probably have the Counter Force intervene to stop it before it happens. Or just kill them all.
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Well, to be a HS you don't need to be revered, just known about and considered "special". Medusa is hardly seen as a hero, after all....
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Well, to be a HS you don't need to be revered, just known about and considered "special". Medusa is hardly seen as a hero, after all....
Medusa is an Anti-Hero, not a Heroic Spirit. The two are different.
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She's still in the Throne though, right?
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I am actually unsure. I only know that she was summonable because of the tainted grail.
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She's still in the Throne though, right?
We were not talking about whether not she was in the Throne, Mike, we were talking about whether not she was a Heroic Spirit. She is not, but she is still in the Throne because she's an Anti-Hero. Shirou is not either. EMIYA is in there too because he's a CG, doesnt make him a Heroic Spirit.
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Ok, so then, now that I've read this my opinion is set. Canon or otherwise I'm going to warn you, Brah, Umbra and Arch, off my work. I'm not like the three of you, I do not tolerate or revel in despair or failure and as such I do not write things as if the word impossible exist. As such none of you will enjoy any of it canon or otherwise. It will simply aggravate you when the facts aren't as you see them and when I choose not to change things on your account.
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I will not enjoy it because it's objectively bad writing, if you gave a feasible explanation that isn't "X happened/Y appeared" for all of your impossibilities, i might. But knowing you, that's not happening.
Oh im sorry, it's not written yet? Well that might be the issue then.
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Ok, so then, now that I've read this my opinion is set. Canon or otherwise I'm going to warn you, Brah, Umbra and Arch, off my work. I'm not like the three of you, I do not tolerate or revel in despair or failure and as such I do not write things as if the word impossible exist. As such none of you will enjoy any of it canon or otherwise. It will simply aggravate you when the facts aren't as you see them and when I choose not to change things on your account.
This is actually rather insulting. Revel in despair or failure? Are you kidding me? Also if you can give a reasonable explanation for the events happening than I would read your work. However if the only explanation is that their are an infinite amount of worlds so somewhere it has to happen than that is inexcusable. An author should be able to tell us why something changed and what caused the change. If the creator says something is pretty much impossible and your writing says otherwise than you better have a decent and believable reason.
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Crimson Moon and Angra Mainyu fusing and Merlin, Zelretch and Aoko uniting to fight it with my awful Self-insert OC sue can totally happen guys, totally seriously, for the magnificent ware-sama could never be wrong because I have undiagnosed egomania and cannot realize that i might actually be wrong about something.
.
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I said Tolerate or Umbra, that changes the meaning quite a bit, as for the rest, don't stick words in my mouth please.
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I never wrote that Brah, you are a liar
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I said Tolerate or Umbra, that changes the meaning quite a bit, as for the rest, don't stick words I literally just said myself in my magnificent, godly mouth please.
He didnt remove the "or" or "tolerate", don't stick words in your own mout-wait.
Seriously lantz lay off the cheap crack.
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I never wrote that Brah, you are a liar
that's the joke because you might as well have.
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Ok, so then, now that I've read this my opinion is set. Canon or otherwise I'm going to warn you, Brah, Umbra and Arch, off my work. I'm not like the three of you, I do not tolerate or revel in despair or failure and as such I do not write things as if the word impossible exist. As such none of you will enjoy any of it canon or otherwise. It will simply aggravate you when the facts aren't as you see them and when I choose not to change things on your account.
This is actually rather insulting. Revel in despair or failure? Are you kidding me? Also if you can give a reasonable explanation for the events happening than I would read your work. However if the only explanation is that their are an infinite amount of worlds so somewhere it has to happen than that is inexcusable. An author should be able to tell us why something changed and what caused the change. If the creator says something is pretty much impossible and your writing says otherwise than you better have a decent and believable reason.
Well, I think the existence of infinite worlds allows for the use of more implausible explanations, but other than that I would agree that the author still needs to explain how their history came about to at least some extent.
I said Tolerate or Umbra, that changes the meaning quite a bit, as for the rest, don't stick words I literally just said myself in my magnificent, godly mouth please.
He didnt remove the "or" or "tolerate", don't stick words in your own mout-wait.
Seriously lantz lay off the cheap crack.
Brah, cut out the insults.
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Brah, cut out the insults.
I am not insulting, I am giving him medical advice.
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I said Tolerate or Umbra, that changes the meaning quite a bit, as for the rest, don't stick words in my mouth please.
They are both equally offensive to me. However this argument has no place here. I have no idea why you decided to post it here instead of leaving a PM or comment, but it would be prudent if this derail stopped here.
Well, I think the existence of infinite worlds allows for the use of more implausible explanations, but other than that I would agree that the author still needs to explain how their history came about to at least some extent.
If it is fanfiction I am willing to let things go. It is fanfiction after all. Far stranger things than a HS Shirou has happened in it.
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Brah, cut out the insults.
I am not insulting, I am giving him medical advice.
OK, seriously, stop it right now.
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What an awfully joke-hostile environment.
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Far stranger things than a HS Shirou has happened
inb4 Wakame Paradise.
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What an awfully joke-hostile environment.
Truly, though I would hardly joke about serious medical advice in a very serious thread about very serious canon.
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What an awfully joke-hostile environment.
Jokes are fine, but what he's doing looks a hell of a lot like trolling from where I'm sitting....
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Ok, so then, now that I've read this my opinion is set. Canon or otherwise I'm going to warn you, Brah, Umbra and Arch, off my work. I'm not like the three of you, I do not tolerate or revel in despair or failure and as such I do not write things as if the word impossible exist. As such none of you will enjoy any of it canon or otherwise. It will simply aggravate you when the facts aren't as you see them and when I choose not to change things on your account.
A pity I'm late for this wonderful WONDERFUL display of egomania. I enjoy your fanfiction Lantz, in the 'trainwreck' way. They're so bad they become somewhat good just through their black hole of horribleness. I can't tear my eyes away from the carnage and utter horrific mutilation they are to the nasuverse. It's sick in a way, how I can do this, but I'm not the guy who wrote a lemon featuring a female version of Shinji teaching an AU male counterpart that consensual sex is great. By raping him.
Jokes are fine, but what he's doing looks a hell of a lot like trolling from where I'm sitting....
You obviously need to stop taking cheap crack too.
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What an awfully joke-hostile environment.
Jokes are fine, but what he's doing looks a hell of a lot like trolling from where I'm sitting....
It's not trolling if it's not trolling. And it's not trolling, therefor it's not trolling.
Joking =/= trolling, though they seem to be the same to you.
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I'm not the guy who wrote a lemon featuring a female version of Shinji teaching an AU male counterpart that consensual sex is great. By raping him.
Lolwut?
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It's sick in a way, how I can do this, but I'm not the guy who wrote a lemon featuring a female version of Shinji teaching an AU male counterpart that consensual sex is great. By raping him.
I don't understand... Other than the fact that this makes no sense how do they even meet?
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They don't. Arch just can't read....
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Knowing Lantz's attitude to fanfiction writing, I should not be surprised by ANYTHING.
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They don't. Arch just can't read....
Arch's reading is pretty flawless.
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http://darksidemoon.net/SMF_forum/index.php/topic,208.0.html (http://darksidemoon.net/SMF_forum/index.php/topic,208.0.html)
OK, maybe not rape, but still. Jesus. Ye be cursed whoever reads it as I did out of a morbid curiosity to how bad his many lemons were.
I want to burn my eyes out with hot coals.
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Christ on a bike.
9oniichanshotmeatstick11me
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OK, this is not the Lantz bashing thread. Cut it out now.
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OK, this is not the Lantz bashing thread. Cut it out now.
There's no bashing here, only honest criticism. If we aren't honest then we can't criticize.
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Yeah, and it's not the Lantz criticism thread either.
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But this is the Canon thread. Lantz's utterly true and correct statement showed that his fic is 100% plausible within canon, and we're discussing that fic. Therefor, we are on topic.
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It's meant to be for actual Nasuverse canon though. :V
But yeah, jokes or no jokes, things are getting just a touch hostile in here. Cool off you guys, and let's get the topic back on... well, topic, that of actual Nasuverse canon.
Now... what were we talking about again? ^^" Something about whether Shirou would be an HS or not? Though to be honest, we've probably talked that one to death by now, moving on to another topic (that's actually on topic of course) may not hurt.
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Would magecraft stop working if humanity went space-age?
Considering the whole mana and "world egg" gaia shit and whatnot. Could magi into star travel?
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Can't they just use Od in that case? It would certainly be more taxing but should be possible.
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Would magecraft stop working if humanity went space-age?
Considering the whole mana and "world egg" gaia shit and whatnot. Could magi into star travel?
Magecraft builds on Gaia's existence, and it's will to let it exist. It cannot exist outside it.
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I feel like this is going to turn into a glorified questions thread.
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That's pretty much what this thread is though. :V Minus the actual asking questions first part.
And on the "magecraft in the space age" topic, the other possibility is that we'd get something like Extra's universe. Magecraft is technically dead there, after all, it's just now the "magic" happens within digital landscapes. ...though apparently I read somewhere that Askys mistranslated when they called the people in the Moon Cell capable of manipulating things "magi" and instead it's supposed to be translated as "wizards?" Though I have no form of official confirmation or sources on that whatsoever, so unless there's something from Extra Material or something that proves that right, or we have a rune master confirm that, take it with a whole pile of salt.
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Going to Extra with Archer using Excalibur Image and Shirou using some really crap version of it in HF can we confirm that it is impossible for Shirou to project Excalibur?
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I think the simple answer is that every Thaumaturgical System that enables Magecraft (or the Sacraments of the Church, or whatever), have their foundation engraved in Gaia, so if you went outside its domain you would no longer be able to use it.
@Umbra: Shirou supposedly cannot replicate Divine constructs or things that are "unique" like Ea. Please not it's called Excalibur Image. It's not really Excalibur.
If we want to go meta, I think the programmers had already put it in the game so Nasu said "eh, sure", and later justified it with the Moon Cell boosting Archer's capabilities to project Divine constructs.
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Would magecraft stop working if humanity went space-age?
Considering the whole mana and "world egg" gaia shit and whatnot. Could magi into star travel?
Hmm, it's not clear. It depends if mana is something that only exists on Earth or if it exists throughout the universe.
Going to Extra with Archer using Excalibur Image and Shirou using some really crap version of it in HF can we confirm that it is impossible for Shirou to project Excalibur?
Well, it depends what you mean by "project Excalibur". He can clearly project something like it, he clearly can't project a perfect copy. So, whether he can project it or not depends on how close to the real thing it has to be to call it "Excalibur".
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Going to Extra with Archer using Excalibur Image and Shirou using some really crap version of it in HF can we confirm that it is impossible for Shirou to project Excalibur?
From what I've gathered, pretty much. It's still pretty strong of course, even if it's pretty much Excalipoor instead of the actual Excalibur, but it's not an actual copy of Excalibur itself. Still pretty awesome in my opinion that he can even do that, even if it's not an actual direct copy of the actual sword.
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Well, it seems to be a copy of Excalibur but with something missing, since Shirou can't just make swords up out of thin air. It has to be based on some original blueprint, and the only original blueprint of that form he has is Excalibur itself. It is clear, though, that he is missing something in his blueprints for it.
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Would magecraft stop working if humanity went space-age?
Considering the whole mana and "world egg" gaia shit and whatnot. Could magi into star travel?
Hmm, it's not clear. It depends if mana is something that only exists on Earth or if it exists throughout the universe.
Prana exists on every planet (Notes is clear proof of this), but every thaumaturgical system is firmly and totally grounded in Gaia and wouldn't work outside it. Sure, there might exist other lifeforms in space with thaumaturgical systems, but those in turn cater to their planet's conscience.
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Yeah, OK, that makes sense.
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Well, it seems to be a copy of Excalibur but with something missing, since Shirou can't just make swords up out of thin air. It has to be based on some original blueprint, and the only original blueprint of that form he has is Excalibur itself. It is clear, though, that he is missing something in his blueprints for it.
Yes that makes sense. It must be a very imperfect copy compared to his regular projections. So maybe something like it could only beamu but lacked any physical capabilities.
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Well, I would assume the part that is missing is all the fairy-related stuff, since that is the bit he is said to be unable to comprehend. Exactly what effect that has is not clear, though.
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Well, I would assume the part that is missing is all the fairy-related stuff, since that is the bit he is said to be unable to comprehend. Exactly what effect that has is not clear, though.
Well, I think that the fairy parts are related to the beamu. I have no source for that so I would take it with a grain of salt. Otherwise wouldn't it just be a normal sword if it lacked all the fairy components?
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I'm not sure, but the traced version can still do the beam.
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Yeah. That's why I was thought of it as only replicating parts of it. For example it has beamu but it isn't as strong physically as it should be or vice versa.
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Actually, Excalibur: he can't project it.
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Excalipoor would be what Shirou does with regular weapons.
This is more like Esca Libre, the Chinese knockoff of a Mexican knockoff of something that was never really Excalibur in the first place.
-Eddyak 2014
Does this description work?
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I think so. At least in terms of what he ends up creating in the end and the severe decrease in power level. It does at least have the distinction of looking the same as the real deal though. :V
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Actually, Excalibur: he can't project it.
He can clearly project some form of it, because he does so at the end of HF. It might not be close enough to be called "Excalibur", but it's definitely based on it.
Excalipoor would be what Shirou does with regular weapons.
This is more like Esca Libre, the Chinese knockoff of a Mexican knockoff of something that was never really Excalibur in the first place.
-Eddyak 2014
Does this description work?
I'm not sure exactly what that means, honestly. Certainly what he traces is based on Excalibur's blueprint, and acts much like Excalibur. It just lacks some elements that Shirou cannot copy.
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Consider it like the cheap chinese knock off with substandard plastic that sort of in a good light looks like the real thing.
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Actually, Excalibur: he can't project it.
He can clearly project some form of it, because he does so at the end of HF. It might not be close enough to be called "Excalibur", but it's definitely based on it.
Excalipoor would be what Shirou does with regular weapons.
This is more like Esca Libre, the Chinese knockoff of a Mexican knockoff of something that was never really Excalibur in the first place.
-Eddyak 2014
Does this description work?
I'm not sure exactly what that means, honestly. Certainly what he traces is based on Excalibur's blueprint, and acts much like Excalibur. It just lacks some elements that Shirou cannot copy.
But, it isn't.
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Consider it like the cheap chinese knock off with substandard plastic that sort of in a good light looks like the real thing.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "knockoff" in this context, though. It's clear that the version Shirou makes is based on what he can understand of the original Excalibur, because that is how UBW works. It's just not a particularly good copy of it.
Actually, Excalibur: he can't project it.
He can clearly project some form of it, because he does so at the end of HF. It might not be close enough to be called "Excalibur", but it's definitely based on it.
Excalipoor would be what Shirou does with regular weapons.
This is more like Esca Libre, the Chinese knockoff of a Mexican knockoff of something that was never really Excalibur in the first place.
-Eddyak 2014
Does this description work?
I'm not sure exactly what that means, honestly. Certainly what he traces is based on Excalibur's blueprint, and acts much like Excalibur. It just lacks some elements that Shirou cannot copy.
But, it isn't.
Then what the fucking hell is it based on? Because it certainly looks like Excalibur, and Shirou does not have the ability to just make swords up out of thin air.
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Then what the fucking hell is it based on? Because it certainly looks like Excalibur, and Shirou does not have the ability to just make swords up out of thin air.
It is not for me to know what it is, but what it is not - that being Excalibur.
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Then what the fucking hell is it based on? Because it certainly looks like Excalibur, and Shirou does not have the ability to just make swords up out of thin air.
It is not for me to know what it is, but what it is not - that being Excalibur.
Erm, no, sorry. If I have an explanation and you do not, then you cannot realistically claim you are right, particularly when there is a hell of a lot of ambiguity about what "cannot trace Excalibur" actually means, not to mention the possibility of an outright retcon which, as far as I am concerned, is not valid because it makes no damn sense.
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Then what the fucking hell is it based on? Because it certainly looks like Excalibur, and Shirou does not have the ability to just make swords up out of thin air.
It is not for me to know what it is, but what it is not - that being Excalibur.
Erm, no, sorry. If I have an explanation and you do not, then you cannot realistically claim you are right, particularly when there is a hell of a lot of ambiguity, not to mention the possibility of an outright retcon which, as far as I am concerned, is not valid because it makes no damn sense.
It does not ipso facto require an explanation. It is sufficient to know what it is not.
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Then what the fucking hell is it based on? Because it certainly looks like Excalibur, and Shirou does not have the ability to just make swords up out of thin air.
It is not for me to know what it is, but what it is not - that being Excalibur.
Erm, no, sorry. If I have an explanation and you do not, then you cannot realistically claim you are right, particularly when there is a hell of a lot of ambiguity, not to mention the possibility of an outright retcon which, as far as I am concerned, is not valid because it makes no damn sense.
It does not ipso facto require an explanation. It is sufficient to know what it is not.
Not really. If the only plausible explanation is that it is based-off Excalibur, then it is more likely that either Nasu ret-conned it later (which I consider invalid) or, else, that what he means by "cannot trace Excalibur" is that what he gets when he tries is, whilst based on the original, so inferior that it cannot be called "Excalibur" any more.
You have yet to either refute any statement I have made or provide a viable alternative, which means you have not got a leg to stand on.
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Basically, it looks like Excalibur, it can shoot (smaller) bemu like Excalibur, but it's not Excalibur. Hence the reference to it being a knockoff of a knockoff. Because if his normal weapons are rather high quality knockoffs, but still knockoffs, his Excalibur image is more what we conventionally think of when we think of a knockoff, similar in appearance, but not nearly as high of quality.
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Then what the fucking hell is it based on? Because it certainly looks like Excalibur, and Shirou does not have the ability to just make swords up out of thin air.
It is not for me to know what it is, but what it is not - that being Excalibur.
Erm, no, sorry. If I have an explanation and you do not, then you cannot realistically claim you are right, particularly when there is a hell of a lot of ambiguity, not to mention the possibility of an outright retcon which, as far as I am concerned, is not valid because it makes no damn sense.
It does not ipso facto require an explanation. It is sufficient to know what it is not.
Not really. If the only plausible explanation is that it is based-off Excalibur, then it is more likely that either Nasu ret-conned it later (which I consider invalid) or, else, that what he means by "cannot trace Excalibur" is that what he gets when he tries is, whilst based on the original, so inferior that it cannot be called "Excalibur" any more.
You have yet to either refute any statement I have made or provide a viable alternative, which means you have not got a leg to stand on.
My refutation is that Nasu literally says you are wrong and that saying that an expiation for what Nasu wants is itself inherently not true, which means you have not got a leg to stand on, IMO.
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Sorry, but Nasu does not have the right to retroactively change things and have everyone accept them even if they don't make sense.
Further, as I have said before, there is sufficient ambiguity there that what I said can be true and that, at the same time, it can also be true that Shirou "can't trace Excalibur". Because, what he made is not Excalibur, it's a massively-degraded copy of it. There is no reason why that statement cannot fit with what Nasu said.
It is ridiculous to use an overly-literal interpretation of what Nasu said that is in clear and direct contradiction with the contents of the actual Visual Novel, which takes priority in canon terms over the contents of some side-material book. The VN comes first, and the VN clearly shows him tracing Excalibur, or some degraded version of it with the same basic form and Excaliblast ability.
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Sorry, but Nasu does not have the right to retroactively change things and have everyone accept them even if they don't make sense.
He has the only right.
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Sorry, but Nasu does not have the right to retroactively change things and have everyone accept them even if they don't make sense.
He has the only right.
Nope, sorry. The Visual Novel is the primary canon, it comes above the contents of some side-material book. If Nasu wants to retcon it then he has to go back and change the VN.
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Look I was just making a Hobbit quote.
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Yeah, well, I've not seen the movie and I've not read the book since I was about 12, so....
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I'm pretty sure it's only from the movie.
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Sorry, but Nasu does not have the right to retroactively change things and have everyone accept them even if they don't make sense.
He is the creator, so your argument is invalid.
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Sorry, but Nasu does not have the right to retroactively change things and have everyone accept them even if they don't make sense.
He is the creator, so your argument is invalid.
Nope. Being the creator means you understand the work better than anyone else, and can give clarifications and explanations of things. It does not mean that you can decree that something that did happen actually didn't happen after the fact. The entire concept of FSN canon is meaningless if the VN isn't canon.
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Word of God does have a say in how things work. It does take some priority over fanon assertions. Even if it's easier to dismiss it if it doesn't make sense or is stupid, we do have to consider what Nasu has said on the subject, even if it's only in side materials.
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Word of God does have a say in how things work. It does take some priority over fanon assertions. Even if it's easier to dismiss it if it doesn't make sense or is stupid, we do have to consider what Nasu has said on the subject, even if it's only in side materials.
Word of God takes priority over fanon, yes. It doesn't take priority over canon. I entirely agree that we should consider what Nasu said, but if what Nasu said is clearly not compatible with canon then canon takes priority, and what Leo is saying is clearly not compatible with canon.
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It does not mean that you can decree that something that did happen actually didn't happen after the fact. The entire concept of FSN canon is meaningless if the VN isn't canon.
No, he can. Fate Stay Night is his intellectual property and he can do whatever he wants with it.
Word of God takes priority over fanon, yes. It doesn't take priority over canon. I entirely agree that we should consider what Nasu said, but if what Nasu said is clearly not compatible with canon then canon takes priority, and what Leo is saying is clearly not compatible with canon.
WoG belongs to the canon.
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Word of God does have a say in how things work. It does take some priority over fanon assertions. Even if it's easier to dismiss it if it doesn't make sense or is stupid, we do have to consider what Nasu has said on the subject, even if it's only in side materials.
Word of God takes priority over fanon, yes. It doesn't take priority over canon. I entirely agree that we should consider what Nasu said, but if what Nasu said is clearly not compatible with canon then canon takes priority, and what Leo is saying is clearly not compatible with canon.
Well, it is.
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It does not mean that you can decree that something that did happen actually didn't happen after the fact. The entire concept of FSN canon is meaningless if the VN isn't canon.
No, he can. Fate Stay Night is his intellectual property and he can do whatever he wants with it.
Nope. He can do whatever he likes with the content, but he can't sensibly make parts of the VN non-canon to the VN. And, nor can he force the fandom to accept his concept of what is and is not canon.
Word of God takes priority over fanon, yes. It doesn't take priority over canon. I entirely agree that we should consider what Nasu said, but if what Nasu said is clearly not compatible with canon then canon takes priority, and what Leo is saying is clearly not compatible with canon.
WoG belongs to the canon.
Yes, but it is a lower level of canon than the actual VN is. Thus, if it contradicts the VN then the VN is correct.
Word of God does have a say in how things work. It does take some priority over fanon assertions. Even if it's easier to dismiss it if it doesn't make sense or is stupid, we do have to consider what Nasu has said on the subject, even if it's only in side materials.
Word of God takes priority over fanon, yes. It doesn't take priority over canon. I entirely agree that we should consider what Nasu said, but if what Nasu said is clearly not compatible with canon then canon takes priority, and what Leo is saying is clearly not compatible with canon.
Well, it is.
Sorry, but you have provided zero evidence of that statement. I have provided reasons why it isn't, now it is your turn to provide actual evidence that what you are saying is compatible with what is shown in the VN.
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Sorry, but you have provided zero evidence of that statement. I have provided reasons why it isn't, now it is your turn to provide actual evidence that what you are saying is compatible with what is shown in the VN.
Remind me, I forgot and I jumped in in the middle of the argument anyways.
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I have this feeling Cherry Lover is in denial over parts of side materials and Nasu's interviews he doesn't like.
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I have this feeling Cherry Lover is in denial over parts of side materials and Nasu's interviews he doesn't like.
No, I just consider the actual VN to take priority.
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Wow this isn't rocket science
Archer/Shirou cannot trace Excalibur(WoG): they can make something that looks like it and farts rainbows, but it's straight up not excalibur. It's like if you look at a statue you thought was made of, I dunno, copper online and then you made a statue that sorta looked like copper, but the original was made of bronze. You didn't copy it successfully, but you created something that looks like it, yet that's all it really does: look like it.
Note that I have no idea if you can make statues out of copper or whatever shit
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You can make statues out of copper, actually. The Statue of Liberty is actually copper. That's why it's green now, that's what happens to copper when it's exposed to so much oxygen and turns into copper oxide.
But yup, as for the rest, that's pretty much it in a nutshell. ...I just felt like being pedantic about the copper thing. :V
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Excalibur image is simply even shittier than his ordinary Projections, and probably drain too much EMIYA in non-Moon Cell settings.
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Yeah, that's the impression I get. It's the best he can do with what he is capable of reading of Excalibur, but because he can't really comprehend the fairy parts of it he can't do anything like as good a job as he usually would.
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Topic: Did worms ate Sakura's uterus or placenta? I get both answers from various people.
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Topic: Did worms ate Sakura's uterus or placenta? I get both answers from various people.
To the first, I'm pretty sure the answer is "no". Zouken's intentions for her included having her produce an heir for him, and if the worms ate her uterus that would be impossible. To the second, the answer is "not unless she somehow became pregnant at some point", since women don't have a placenta unless they're pregnant....
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So she is either pregnant or Nasu doesn't know anatomy.
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What?
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Placenta is formed when fetus forms.
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Yeah, what I mean is that I'm not sure why we have to assume that Zouken's worms ate a placenta Sakura had at some point. I think it's said that they do like eating placentas, but that doesn't imply Sakura ever had one.
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Edit: Maybe it's better just to leave it be. I'll PM you about it Mike.
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Is it impossible for non-DA human to stay thousands of years alive without his soul rotting?
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Is it impossible for non-DA human to stay thousands of years alive without his soul rotting?
I don't think being a DA is relevant, certainly. The souls of DAs definitely do rot, that's why they need to drink blood, and why they tend to get worse over time.
I suspect it is possible for a human to survive without their soul rotting, though. Certainly quite a few magi seem to have very long lives.
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Zouken confirms the limit is about 300 hundred years without soul rot. He was a very skilled magus. Probably only Araya did better, but that may have something to with his Origin of Stillness.
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Is it impossible for non-DA human to stay thousands of years alive without his soul rotting?
I don't think being a DA is relevant, certainly. The souls of DAs definitely do rot, that's why they need to drink blood, and why they tend to get worse over time.
I suspect it is possible for a human to survive without their soul rotting, though. Certainly quite a few magi seem to have very long lives.
Sure a couple hundred of years. Thousands is a whole different level. As far as I know the only person in the MA to reach a thousand years is the Director and we don't know anything about him.
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Zouken confirms the limit is about 300 hundred years without soul rot. He was a very skilled magus. Probably only Araya did better, but that may have something to with his Origin of Stillness.
Zouken is a skilled magus, but I'm not sure he is the best magus around, so I don't think we can use him as an absolute limit. Plus, it's implied that Zouken's soul is rotting more because he keeps changing bodies (which essentially means he has lost the "original blueprints" and has a load of crap on top of his main body) than because he is old. I think that, as long as you manage to keep your original body, you'll probably be fine (eventually your soul might rot, but I think the body will invariably rot first).
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I do think though 'death' in any fashion is what starts the soul rot. In other words, if you sort of die and get revived, your soul will rot to bits.
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The more people know about given mystery, the less potent it is?
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OK, in Lantz's Q&A thread, Brah said that Gil has a version of everything that ever existed, even if he never had it in his life. That is not how I thought GoB worked, I always believed it worked on the principle that he has everything he possessed in life, which includes the prototype for just about everything. Is there actually any evidence of Brah's statement, or is he just assuming it on the basis that it's how he thinks GoB should work?
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CCC said something along the lines of Gil having the root of human wisdom or something like that. Basically if a human made it or owned it he has something that follows the original concept better.
So he has the holiest holy sword, the strongest sword, a potion/item that helps him regen much faster, an item that can isolate him from this dimension, but not Excalibur or Avalon.
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Pretty much the only exception I can think of is something like Avalon, which is beyond human comprehension because fairy make, if I remember right, and of which there's only one of. I could be remembering wrong though. For everything else though? If it was made, Gil has a superior prototype of it in GoB.
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CCC said something along the lines of Gil having the root of human wisdom or something like that. Basically if a human made it or owned it he has something that follows the original concept better.
So he has the holiest holy sword, the strongest sword, a potion/item that helps him regen much faster, an item that can isolate him from this dimension, but not Excalibur or Avalon.
Didn't Saber own Excalibur and Avalon, though?
Pretty much the only exception I can think of is something like Avalon, which is beyond human comprehension because fairy make, if I remember right, and of which there's only one of. I could be remembering wrong though. For everything else though? If it was made, Gil has a superior prototype of it in GoB.
Well, my point is that there is a distinction between "Gil has a prototype for every Noble Phantasm because he owned them all before they were Noble Phantasms" and "Gil gets a superior version of everything even if it is not something that he would have had in life".
I always assumed it was the first, because the second sounds utterly stupid, but from that quote it sounds like it is actually the second.
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Think of it like this. Gil has Gram (or was it Merodach? ) which is Caliburn's prototype. Excalibur has no prototype so Gil can't throw its prototype at it and watch it crumble because there is none. However Gil would have the holiest holy sword. A blade that perfectly embodies the concept of being holy.
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Yeah, but he has Caliburn's prototype because he would have had it in life. And, we never see him have any "perfect version of Excalibur". And, he certainly doesn't seem to have anything like Avalon, because if he did then surely he'd have used it at some point.
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Yeah, but he has Caliburn's prototype because he would have had it in life. And, we never see him have any "perfect version of Excalibur". And, he certainly doesn't seem to have anything like Avalon, because if he did then surely he'd have used it at some point.
It isn't a "perfect" Excalibur, but Excalibur is a holy sword. Therefore he should have a holy blade that is better at being holy then Excalibur. Not more powerful, but more holy.
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What exactly is the quote you're referring to as proof of this? Because the idea of Gil retroactively getting a "perfect" version of anything any human makes seems just plain stupid to me.
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Hold on. I have to go digging through the CCC thread at BL for the exact quote.
Rather than treasures, what Gilgamesh has stored is the "starting point of human wisdom" itself.
If there is something that the King of Heroes' vault does not have, that is either "something invented by a new breed of humans by means of entirely new concepts" or "something based on the cultural technology of the intelligent life from another celestial body".
Found it.
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Well, the first part implies that it is possible for there to be something that Gil does not have that is invented by a human, although I'm not clear on what exactly that means in this context.
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A new breed of humans that use a new set of concepts to define whatever they make can create something that doesn't exist in Gil's vault. So I assume it is talking about a scenario like Notes, however I have never read Notes so I cannot say for sure, however this is slightly off topic. Brah is right. Gil has everything thought of by humanity.
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Then Gilgamesh has a weapon against himself in his gate, that's what having a prototype of the sword of darkness is. A weapon specifically designed to murder Gilgamesh.
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Then Gilgamesh has a weapon against himself in his gate, that's what having a prototype of the sword of darkness is. A weapon specifically designed to murder Gilgamesh.
That was Enkidu. And Gilgamesh beat him.
Plus the name for your weapon is fucking stupid.
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What makes me sad is the idea that Gil could empty his vault was considered plausible by lantz.
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Gilgamesh owns everything invented by humanity except:
1) things and concepts not made specifically by humans (like Avalon, Excalibur or Vasakti Shakti). The exceptions are Ea and Enkidu because he owned them personally in his life.
2) things and concepts invented by posthumans, in other words A-Rays and Ether Liners, because they are not humanity anymore.
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Then Gilgamesh has a weapon against himself in his gate, that's what having a prototype of the sword of darkness is. A weapon specifically designed to murder Gilgamesh.
So, Gil in your universe possesses the ultimate Gilgamesh-killing sword?
What makes me sad is the idea that Gil could empty his vault was considered plausible by lantz.
It's made pretty clear in Zero that Gil does have to "collect" his weapons after the battle (because he discards some after using them against Caster's monster), and humanity doesn't have an infinite amount of weapons, so eventually it should be possible to empty it, in principle at least.
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He has something in it to recollect them. Which is probably automatic unless he'd rather not retrieve his weapons.
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Yes, probably, but if the weapon is damaged or stolen then he might not be able to reclaim it.
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He should be able to reclaim the stolen ones. Broken ones probably can't be reclaimed, but unless you can trace NPs to throw at his NPs he will just keep throwing them at you until you die.
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Why is lantz's hate-sword being discussed in this thread?
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Because of canon defilement.